Japan Nuclear Crisis Part III

[LovintheWhiteFluff]

Work was stopped on reactor #3 because of black smoke that was produced yesterday afternoon. No explanation of the source of that smoke yet. www3.nhk.or.jp

[LovintheWhiteFluff]

NHK TV - Edano states in live conference that #1 reactor is now the main concern due pressure issues and core problems. Monitoring the situation via temp readings. - Edano

[Scott747]

This is why I love coming to this weather forum. The level of intellect and the discussion of the intimate details found here is why I come almost every day to learn. It is very time consuming to do the research so when it is shared by so many everyone learns that much more. Also most here seem to enjoy the details unlike most people I know who always yell at me for delivering too much information and tell me I am making peoples eyes glaze over, so I had to say I really enjoyed seeing this document. Thanks Scott.

You're welcome....

It has been tedious getting factual information for this event and weeding out the hysterical type of stuff.

Here is a more detailed look at the readings from within the plant and a better idea on the location of the monitors.

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110323-2-3.pdf

Cajun was right with direction of the 'main gate.' 1km wnw of the reactors.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

Looking at the latest screenshots...people playing checkers next to the reactor.

Things look grande...time for a party.

[Scott747]

Reports are that the pressure continues to build in the #1 reactor and now it's up to Kan to make the decision to vent. It's no wonder they seem to be running in circles at times.

Japan nuclear agency says decision on venting no.1 reactor is for PM Kan to make

[ArtRosen]

Reports are that the pressure continues to build in the #1 reactor and now it's up to Kan to make the decision to vent. It's no wonder they seem to be running in circles at times.

Japan nuclear agency says decision on venting no.1 reactor is for PM Kan to make

Um. Why is it for the Prime Minister to make? When did he become an expert in nuclear technology? The only thing I can think of is that it'll harm people, but since everyone is evacuated....

Reuters Reuters Top News FLASH: Japan nuclear agency: 3 workers hurt by radiation at Fukushima plant

[Hailstorm]

NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive iodine 147 times higher in seawater near nuke plant: TEPCO

BREAKING NEWS: 2 workers exposed to radiation from troubled nuke plant hospitalized

[Scott747]

Um. Why is it for the Prime Minister to make? When did he become an expert in nuclear technology? The only thing I can think of is that it'll harm people, but since everyone is evacuated....

Reuters Reuters Top News FLASH: Japan nuclear agency: 3 workers hurt by radiation at Fukushima plant

Possible that the final decision to vent has been his all along and now just being reported.

Supposedly the rise in pressure is being caused by the massive amount of water that is being dumped on it to try and combat the rising temperature over the last few days. I'd guess that if they vent they will have to temporarily evac the plant.

[Hailstorm]

The 3 workers received a dose of 180 millisieverts per hour from radiation-tainted water in Reactor #3 when trying to restore cooling functions inside the turbines. They received burns to the body and are now hospitalized.

[Mt.Zoniac]

****.

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NEUTRON BEAM OBSERVED (AT LEAST) 13 TIMES; RADIATION LEVELS AT REACTOR #2 AT HIGHEST LEVELS YET

March 23rd, 2011

http://bbnworldnews.com/newspost/radiation-level-at-fukushima-reactor-no-2-at-its-highest-level-recorded-so-far-neutron-beam-observed-13-times-2/

Per the Japan Nuclear Agency: the Radiation level at Fukushima reactor No. 2 at its highest level recorded so far. From Reuters: “Radiation at the crippled Fukushima No.2 nuclear reactor was recorded at the highest level since the start of the crisis, Japan’s nuclear safety agency said on Wednesday. An agency spokesman said 500 millisieverts per hour of radiation was measured at the No.2 unit on Wednesday. Engineers have been trying to fix the plant’s cooling system after restoring lighting on Tuesday.” And some more truthy news from Kyodo:

Electric Power Co. said Wednesday it has observed a neutron beam, a kind of radioactive ray, 13 times on the premises of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant after it was crippled by the massive March 11 quake-tsunami disaster.

TEPCO, the operator of the nuclear plant, said the neutron beam measured about 1.5 kilometers southwest of the plant’s No. 1 and 2 reactors over three days from March 13 and is equivalent to 0.01 to 0.02 microsieverts per hour and that this is not a dangerous level.

The utility firm said it will measure uranium and plutonium, which could emit a neutron beam, as well.

[LovintheWhiteFluff]

NEWS ADVISORY: Gov't may move people beyond 30km of nuke plant to make lives easier (16:42) english.kyodonews.jp

[OSUmetstud]

The 3 workers received a dose of 180 millisieverts per hour from radiation-tainted water in Reactor #3 when trying to restore cooling functions inside the turbines. They received burns to the body and are now hospitalized.

U have a link for that? From what I've read this morning, radiation burns don't appear until a dose of at least 2 Sv.

[Dunkman]

U have a link for that? From what I've read this morning, radiation burns don't appear until a dose of at least 2 Sv.

I haven't seen it either. Maybe it was the hot water that caused the burns?

edit: Found it, apparently they were beta ray burns.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80799.html

[SP]

Possible that the final decision to vent has been his all along and now just being reported.

Supposedly the rise in pressure is being caused by the massive amount of water that is being dumped on it to try and combat the rising temperature over the last few days. I'd guess that if they vent they will have to temporarily evac the plant.

either way the risk an explosion......some level of radiation being ejected......

my hunch is they will vent to avoid the vessel from melting.....as the pressures rise.....temps rise above the roughly 375c level and the water is no longer liquid.....more gas.....pressure and boom....melt...heat...all bad stuff.....

seems we are going full circle ....as similar conditions and choices brought us the hydrogen explosions days after the quake.

If the cycle remains to go round and round....I would expect to hear containment actions being taken which would likely start with sand to temper down radiation for crews to try and get in there one last try.

How do you flood something with sea water and not expect to manage relief valves in order to control pressure levels which ultimately defeat the purpose of water in a liquid state COOLING??

Not sure what the weather in Japan looks like but if I had friends or family in Tokyo I might be flying them out right about now. I know many businesses are doing so.

edit: after further reading......I would have them RUN to an airport and go anywhere else.

[Ed Lizard]

****.

------------------------------------------

NEUTRON BEAM OBSERVED (AT LEAST) 13 TIMES; RADIATION LEVELS AT REACTOR #2 AT HIGHEST LEVELS YET

March 23rd, 2011

http://bbnworldnews....ved-13-times-2/

Per the Japan Nuclear Agency: the Radiation level at Fukushima reactor No. 2 at its highest level recorded so far. From Reuters: “Radiation at the crippled Fukushima No.2 nuclear reactor was recorded at the highest level since the start of the crisis, Japan’s nuclear safety agency said on Wednesday. An agency spokesman said 500 millisieverts per hour of radiation was measured at the No.2 unit on Wednesday. Engineers have been trying to fix the plant’s cooling system after restoring lighting on Tuesday.” And some more truthy news from Kyodo:

Electric Power Co. said Wednesday it has observed a neutron beam, a kind of radioactive ray, 13 times on the premises of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant after it was crippled by the massive March 11 quake-tsunami disaster.

TEPCO, the operator of the nuclear plant, said the neutron beam measured about 1.5 kilometers southwest of the plant’s No. 1 and 2 reactors over three days from March 13 and is equivalent to 0.01 to 0.02 microsieverts per hour and that this is not a dangerous level.

The utility firm said it will measure uranium and plutonium, which could emit a neutron beam, as well.

I'm as rightwing as they come, well, not quite, but that BBN link has stories about the New World Order and stuff, and well, working in a nuclear plant for 4 years, I never heard of a neutron beam. A shutdown reactor wouldn't be emitting many neutrons, and I have no idea how it'd form a 'beam'.

BBN appears to be beyond World Net as a not exactly reliable source.

[SuperNET]

either way the risk an explosion......some level of radiation being ejected......

my hunch is they will vent to avoid the vessel from melting.....as the pressures rise.....temps rise above the roughly 375c level and the water is no longer liquid.....more gas.....pressure and boom....melt...heat...all bad stuff.....

seems we are going full circle ....as similar conditions and choices brought us the hydrogen explosions days after the quake.

If the cycle remains to go round and round....I would expect to hear containment actions being taken which would likely start with sand to temper down radiation for crews to try and get in there one last try.

How do you flood something with sea water and not expect to manage relief valves in order to control pressure levels which ultimately defeat the purpose of water in a liquid state COOLING??

Not sure what the weather in Japan looks like but if I had friends or family in Tokyo I might be flying them out right about now. I know many businesses are doing so.

edit: after further reading......I would have them RUN to an airport and go anywhere else.

I thought about this last night........

After injecting tons of sea water into all of the reactors and fuel pools, what is really going on? What happens when the water component boils away, what's left?

Salt, right?

What happens when you have layer after layer of salt building up on and in the reactor and the spent fuel pools? It acts to encase the the fuel rods and reactor core thereby not allowing water for cooling. Next, what happens?

Another hydrogen explosion which is not what they need.

[loadletterpaper]

The 3 workers received a dose of 180 millisieverts per hour from radiation-tainted water in Reactor #3 when trying to restore cooling functions inside the turbines. They received burns to the body and are now hospitalized.

I haven't seen it either. Maybe it was the hot water that caused the burns?

edit: Found it, apparently they were beta ray burns.

http://english.kyodo...1/03/80799.html

Article says 173 and 180 mSv total dose (not dose rate, i.e. mSv/hr). Hope it doesn't add to the confusion, but I'm used to Rem. 1 mSv = 100 mRem, so 180 mSv = 180 * 100 mRem = 18000 mRem = 18 Rem. That is a serious acute dose. I presume the burns were because it was beta, which would have deposited all its energy in the skin (light charged particle, very easy to stop). Beta = high energy electrons from decaying radioactive nuclei, neutron decay to stabilize a nucleus. Tritium and Sr90 are the ones that come to mind.

No expert, but I am a rad worker (particle accelerators, not reactors). Corrections welcomed.

BTW, seems people are finally getting their milli and micro right. Agree with some posts I've seen (I think - have to re-read). I use "u" for micro and "m" for milli.

[OSUmetstud]

I'm as rightwing as they come, well, not quite, but that BBN link has stories about the New World Order and stuff, and well, working in a nuclear plant for 4 years, I never heard of a neutron beam. A shutdown reactor wouldn't be emitting many neutrons, and I have no idea how it'd form a 'beam'.

BBN appears to be beyond World Net as a not exactly reliable source.

I couldn't come up with a legitimate source after doing a google search. Lots of "goldismoney" and "godlikeproduction" links came up. Spent fuel could be releasing neutrons, correct?

[SP]

I thought about this last night........

After injecting tons of sea water into all of the reactors and fuel pools, what is really going on? What happens when the water component boils away, what's left?

Salt, right?

What happens when you have layer after layer of salt building up on and in the reactor and the spent fuel pools? It acts to encase the the fuel rods and reactor core thereby not allowing water for cooling. Next, what happens?

Another hydrogen explosion which is not what they need.

If I get a chance to speak to my dad (physicist,....nuke/optics) will get his opinion on the vessel environment. I know there is a critical temp point of around 375c....not sure what happens to the salt under those conditions....temps/pressures etc.

I know sodium as a coolant is doable....reactors for example. At a place I worked, it was used to cool the furnaces growing gallium arsenide crystals at temps around 1000-1100c. You can not introduce water because it would create an explosion.....even the local FD had to be briefed or the building would go BOOM. Same would apply to the newer reactors using sodium cooling systems.

[Bozart]

I'm as rightwing as they come, well, not quite, but that BBN link has stories about the New World Order and stuff, and well, working in a nuclear plant for 4 years, I never heard of a neutron beam. A shutdown reactor wouldn't be emitting many neutrons, and I have no idea how it'd form a 'beam'.

BBN appears to be beyond World Net as a not exactly reliable source.

Here's an alternate source that reports on the "beam," reportedly quoting Kyodo and TEPCO.

I too wondered how a "beam" could be formed. But nonetheless...

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110324a6.html

[OSUmetstud]

If I get a chance to speak to my dad (physicist,....nuke/optics) will get his opinion on the vessel environment. I know there is a critical temp point of around 375c....not sure what happens to the salt under those conditions....temps/pressures etc.

I know sodium as a coolant is doable....reactors for example. At a place I worked, it was used to cool the furnaces growing gallium arsenide crystals at temps around 1000-1100c. You can not introduce water because it would create an explosion.....even the local FD had to be briefed or the building would go BOOM. Same would apply to the newer reactors using sodium cooling systems.

From what I understand, BWR reactors are built with a negative void coeffcient. With more rods exposed and less water, the chain reaction should actually slow down since the water is acting as a neutron deflector. (RBMK type reactors, like Chernoybl, had a high positive void coefficient.)

[loadletterpaper]

I'm as rightwing as they come, well, not quite, but that BBN link has stories about the New World Order and stuff, and well, working in a nuclear plant for 4 years, I never heard of a neutron beam. A shutdown reactor wouldn't be emitting many neutrons, and I have no idea how it'd form a 'beam'.

BBN appears to be beyond World Net as a not exactly reliable source.

I couldn't come up with a legitimate source after doing a google search. Lots of "goldismoney" and "godlikeproduction" links came up. Spent fuel could be releasing neutrons, correct?

Here's an alternate source that reports on the "beam," reportedly quoting Kyodo and TEPCO.

I too wondered how a "beam" could be formed. But nonetheless...

http://search.japant...20110324a6.html

Agree that "beam" should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't know enough about potential sources of intense neutron activity in shut down reactors - maybe alpha-n reactions from fission products? I would think spent fuel (shut down reactor or pools) is mostly alpha, beta, gamma emitters, but I'm out of my league. Is water in the spent fuel pool a neutron shield in addition to providing cooling? Certainly it's a radiation shield per se. Perhaps an exposed pool is a source of neutrons? Ed and others here surely know better than me.

In any case, assuming there was some very intense source, the only way I could see a "beam" being formed is if the neutrons were coming thru a small opening in some otherwise highly shielded region, acting like a collimator. Even if that were the case, the idea of stumbling upon / detecting a beam that's km away from the plant is pretty far fetched.

While they may be seeing neutrons over natural background away from the plant, I doubt it's a "beam". Poor word choice or bad translation I'd guess.

[ThePhotoGuy]

NEWS ADVISORY: Gov't may move people beyond 30km of nuke plant to make lives easier (16:42) english.kyodonews.jp

To make their lives easier or to protect them from radiation?

[dan11295]

I think the "beam" was simply a mistranslation of neutron radiation. One source of such radiation would be immediate fission products (the initial decay products have lifetimes of milliseconds and often release neutrons in te decay process, unlike the longer lived radionuclides).

[ArtRosen]

U have a link for that? From what I've read this morning, radiation burns don't appear until a dose of at least 2 Sv.

According to this article (http://www.washingto...l0MB_story.html) the workers at the Japanese nuke plant suffered Beta Ray burns.

I'm calling BS on their measurement of 170 to 180 milliseverts because you cannot suffer beta ray burns from that little. In fact, it would be MUCH MUCH more.

I know it's Wikipedia, but this is the only source I could find....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_burn

You would need 6-20 Grays to cause skin burns.

1 Gray = 1000 millisieverts.

6 Grays = 6,000 millisieverts or 6 sieverts.

According to this chart (http://en.wikipedia....ation_poisoning) these workers if they were exposed to 6 sieverts have a 50% chance of surviving with medical care. They're also likely experiencing other problems as well.

If these guys are getting beta ray burns, that radiation is MUCH MUCH higher than what they're saying it is.

Edit, according to one source you can get as little as 2 Grays and still receive beta ray burns. Ok, that's 2 Grays = 2,000 millisieverts. or 2 sieverts No one is reporting that kind of radiation... and obviously it's present.

[OSUmetstud]

According to this article (http://www.washingto...l0MB_story.html) the workers at the Japanese nuke plant suffered Beta Ray burns.

I'm calling BS on their measurement of 170 to 180 milliseverts because you cannot suffer beta ray burns from that little. In fact, it would be MUCH MUCH more.

I know it's Wikipedia, but this is the only source I could find....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_burn

You would need 6-20 Grays to cause skin burns.

1 Gray = 1000 millisieverts.

6 Grays = 6,000 millisieverts or 6 sieverts.

According to this chart (http://en.wikipedia....ation_poisoning) these workers if they were exposed to 6 sieverts have a 50% chance of surviving with medical care. They're also likely experiencing other problems as well.

If these guys are getting beta ray burns, that radiation is MUCH MUCH higher than what they're saying it is.

The radiation was only experienced on their feet due to the contaminated water...I think that's why the measurement is significantly less than what typically causes radiation burns...my understanding on this topic is extremely limited, though.

[johnc]

Does anyone have a good 7-day wind forecast for the area? My last attempt with WeatherBug didn't verify too well.

[Ed Lizard]

Salt and sodium aren't the same thing, as far as coolants go. West Milton, NY had a liquid sodium cooled reactor plant for a time, I trained at the pressurized water reactor prototype for the nuclear destroyers (D1G) that was built in its place. During the Ford years, all the guided missile nuclear destroyers (DLGN) were magically renamed as cruisers (CGN). The USS Long Beach (CGN-9) was the only true nuclear cruiser ever built.

A liquid sodium leak would be bad, and it does bad things in contact with water. Probably why the Navy never had a sodium reactor in the fleet.

When the price of hafnium or boron or whatever the material in the control rods got expensive, Hyman Rickover had the Navy develop 'the rodless wonder', MARF. We called it 'Merely Awaiting Reactor Fill'. Fast neutrons are inefficient at causing fission, they have to be slowed down, or moderated. Water is good at that, hydrogen has a similar molecular weight as a neutron, it takes only a few collisions to slow the neutron to a sufficiently low energy that it is prone to capture by a U-235 and fission. MARF had water filled tubes instead of control rods, instead of dropping rods to SCRAM the reactor, valves opened to drop the water level to zero in the tubes and shut down the reactor.

Of course, besides gravity, all the reactors offshore I know of have 'scram springs' that will drive the rods into the reactor to kill it, even if the ship has capsized. Failsafe, loss of power to the rod motors, the reactor will scram.

Yeah, saltwater evaporating on hot metal would eventually form a thermal barrier, I'd guess. They might need to lay hose for fresh water eventually.

[Mt.Zoniac]

Neutron Beam Explanation: Now you're getting into particle physics...A 'neutron beam' is basically a neutral (uncharged) particle wave of neutrons that can be produced in several ways, one of those ways as fission within a reactor. Neutron beams can also occur in particle accelerators. But in this situation, this IS THE NUCLEAR REACTION which releases energy inside the reactor itself. Neutron releases (the nuclear reaction) are controlled of course by the rods - control rods - of either boron or cadmium. Punch a hole in that reactor or crack it open, and with live fission currently occurring, a 'beam' of neutrons forms as a particle wave and exits out the hole or opening. An energy beam outside the reactor is what they detected. Basically, the reactor is broke, they can't control the process with the rods, the reactor either cracked open or has open hole(s).

Translation: The reactor without the rods is out of control; they're spraying water on it as a Holy-Mary stopgap

temporary measure, attempting to control the release of neutrons (the nuclear reaction within the reactor) without the cooling system and the control rods normally in place to temper both those by-products. Those by-products would be neutrons and heat.

I'm as rightwing as they come, well, not quite, but that BBN link has stories about the New World Order and stuff, and well, working in a nuclear plant for 4 years, I never heard of a neutron beam. A shutdown reactor wouldn't be emitting many neutrons, and I have no idea how it'd form a 'beam'.

BBN appears to be beyond World Net as a not exactly reliable source.

[OSUmetstud]

Neutron Beam Explanation: Now you're getting into particle physics...A 'neutron beam' is basically a neutral (uncharged) particle wave of neutrons that can be produced in several ways, one of those ways as fission within a reactor. Neutron beams can also occur in particle accelerators. But in this situation, this IS THE NUCLEAR REACTION which releases energy inside the reactor itself. Neutron releases (the nuclear reaction) are controlled of course by the rods - control rods - of either boron or cadmium. Punch a hole in that reactor or crack it open, and with live fission currently occurring, a 'beam' of neutrons forms as a particle wave and exits out the hole or opening. An energy beam outside the reactor is what they detected. Basically, the reactor is broke, they can't control the process with the rods, the reactor either cracked open or has open hole(s).

Translation: The reactor without the rods is out of control; they're spraying water on it as a Holy-Mary stopgap

temporary measure, attempting to control the release of neutrons (the nuclear reaction within the reactor) without the cooling system and the control rods normally in place to temper both those by-products. Those by-products would be neutrons and heat.

The reactor is scrammed...the controls rods are fully inserted in all 4 reactors.