LithiaWx Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 they do both though...it's more complete information and reporting. The lay person will not understand what particular radiation numbers mean...so they compare them to normal to give context. In fairness to you and the board, your right. You pointed out there was a quantifiable number and a x's number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozart Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 they do both though...it's more complete information and reporting. The lay person will not understand what particular radiation numbers mean...so they compare them to normal to give context. I know if the NWS suddenly started forecasting wind speeds in meters per second, I'd be disoriented. What's needed with this nuclear situation is a new, standardized language for reporting radiation hazards that the lay public can understand. Japan is going to have a long, LONG time to perfect such a system for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterymix Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I know if the NWS suddenly started forecasting wind speeds in meters per second, I'd be disoriented. What's needed with this nuclear situation is a new, standardized language for reporting radiation hazards that the lay public can understand. Japan is going to have a long, LONG time to perfect such a system for us. Regarding US air quality, this is a start: http://www.epa.gov/japan2011/data-updates.html Units of radiation is a challenging discipline of knowledge; here are some basics: http://www.jplabs.com/html/units_of_radiation.HTM Here is a more user-friendly essay, by no means easy but fairly well organized: http://www.sprawls.org/resources/RADQU/ Here is a similar article: http://www.eoearth.org/article/Radiation_units Basically, this is college physics and takes mental effort to understand. Solar UV is easy to dumb down, radiation is not as easy because it is expressed as absorbed, equivalent and effective doses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samdman95 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 REUTERSFLASH ReutersBreakingNews Japan's Edano: Contamination of water in Fukushima no.2 reactor seems due to melted fuel rods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 heh NEWS ADVISORY: TEPCO's mishandling of info on nuclear crisis 'unacceptable': Edano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott747 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 On March 14th TEPCO admitted that the fuel rods were totally exposed for over two hours. IIRC after that time they were still half exposed for another length of time. They vented (like 1&3) and instead of the exterior exploding (like 1&3) this is when they believe the suppression pool suffered the breach. It wasn't long afterwords that there was a significant spike in the radioactive readings. Now the question is if it's just the suppression pool or if the actual containment shell was breached. There was a rumor circulating that some high level nuke scientist here in the states with contacts at TEPCO or one of the other agencies said they already knew of a crack in the shell. I'd think that would be even hard for TEPCO to hide.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'd think that would be even hard for TEPCO to hide.... I'm not saying it's true or false, but how would it be hard to hide? They are the only ones taking readings in the 20km zone. It's not something the outside world can see to confirm or deny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 CNNInternatDesk International Desk by BreakingNews The temperature is rising inside the No. 1 nuclear reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozart Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'm not saying it's true or false, but how would it be hard to hide? They are the only ones taking readings in the 20km zone. It's not something the outside world can see to confirm or deny. A plethora of geiger counters is available on Amazon and eBay. What's the problem getting some freelance reporting out of Japan? I find it strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslkahuna Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 A plethora of geiger counters is available on Amazon and eBay. What's the problem getting some freelance reporting out of Japan? I find it strange. Japan has a fair degree of controls upon how the Media can operate in Country. In fact, almost all of the "Free" World has some degree of controls on what, how, and where the media can report. The US is an exception in this sense as is the Philippines (though there you can get shot if someone doesn't like what you report) and a few other Countries but in most the Press is nowhere near as freewheeling as they are here-it's too bad that our media doesn't use that ability in a responsible manner. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozart Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Japan has a fair degree of controls upon how the Media can operate in Country. In fact, almost all of the "Free" World has some degree of controls on what, how, and where the media can report. The US is an exception in this sense as is the Philippines (though there you can get shot if someone doesn't like what you report) and a few other Countries but in most the Press is nowhere near as freewheeling as they are here-it's too bad that our media doesn't use that ability in a responsible manner. Even so, Steve, with the commercial availability of instrumentation, I'm not quite getting our reliance on TEPCO, government, and MSM. Had thought there'd be more citizen reporting via Internet by now, from various distances and directions. Maybe it'll start showing up eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaoPos Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Even so, Steve, with the commercial availability of instrumentation, I'm not quite getting our reliance on TEPCO, government, and MSM. Had thought there'd be more citizen reporting via Internet by now, from various distances and directions. Maybe it'll start showing up eventually. Problem is, in the fast paced world of "breaking news" and action, the radiation leak is like watching paint dry. It's invisible, oderless and not much in the way of grabbing people's attention when compared to bombs, wars, fires( such as when the reactors were on fire, then people payed attention) It's not , on my end, belitteling the situation, but rather the cold hard truth in how the news is played out these days. If people start showing up looking like cancer patients around the community bc of the radiation, it'll be back in the limelight. Till then, this seems like 7th page news. Unfortunately. Keep up the good work in here with the info. I enjoy staying informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott747 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 There are plenty of readings outside the plant that TEPCO isn't involved with. I have also seen a few 'live' feeds that are supposedly of individuals that have video set up in and around Tokyo showing their own counters. Just a few official readings... http://www.mext.go.jp/english/radioactivity_level/detail/1304082.htm http://www.mext.go.jp/english/radioactivity_level/detail/1303962.htm http://www.bousai.ne.jp/eng/ Misc... http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=4870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 There are plenty of readings... Oh. Hey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozart Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Keep up the good work in here with the info. I enjoy staying informed. Wonderful resources provided just in the last few hours by winterymix and Scott747, and informative news updates from others. A fantastic one-stop thread on this incident with great contributors. Many thanks to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott747 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 NHK just reported that TEPCO announced that they have found highly contaminated water outside reactor #2 in a trench that registered at 1000mSv/hr at the surface. Not sure if they translated it incorrectly and meant inside instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 NHK just reported that TEPCO announced that they have found highly contaminated water outside reactor #2 in a trench that registered at 1000mSv/hr at the surface. Not sure if they translated it incorrectly and meant inside instead. Here is Kyodo BREAKING NEWS: Radiation above 1,000 millisieverts found outside No. 2 reactor: TEPCO http://english.kyodonews.jp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterymix Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Wonderful resources provided just in the last few hours by winterymix and Scott747, and informative news updates from others. A fantastic one-stop thread on this incident with great contributors. Many thanks to all! A pleasure, sir. A curious aspect of the unfolding tale are hints that workers at the stricken plants in some case, violate radiation alarms and stay on task out of fierce devotion to duty. This makes the Tokyo electric company look, on the surface, as if it is condemning their employees. Furthermore, once one digs into the information releases, many revealing facts are divulged, not always instantly. Everything seems to be available in both English and in Japanese. Why do people think translation to English is twisting the flow of information? English is the international language of science and at least, 12% of all Japanese are fluent in English with many more able to read English. Heck, in the USA , no more than 95% are fluent in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think its time to dig up that link for the roll call status of each unit. Hopefully they updated it. No question this thread is a one stop status depot for the Japan nuclear crisis. Unfortunately, it is likely to continue for months if not years to come since many of the actual facts and details will not be discovered or released until we are in the post crisis phase and japan is enduring decades of their own form of a Fukushima sarcophagus. This topic might deserve its own sub forum soon, perhaps the entire Japan Quake with its own subs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick G Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think we have hit on the real problem here: no one knows (or very few know) the terms that are being thrown around. of we here that the radiation is 100,000 times normal, we think that is lethal. or we hear that 1,000 millisieverts or we hear 1 sievert ( how can something being a 1 be dangerous). We are in a new place now as well. We have news coming out so fast that no one can check the facts. How many times have we have heard contradictory info? We have scientists giving info out that is way outside their specialties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperNET Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I would make an argument that TEPCO needs a replacement for this particular situation at Diiachi. They are exhausted, over worked, and need a break. Furthermore...they are going to need more bodies to help facilitate stabilization if that's even possible. Another eye to look and verify the situation, but more importantly...they need to start talking about the end game here. We are moving forward to a full scale meltdown in 3 reactors...we may in fact be there right now at not know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterymix Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I would make an argument that TEPCO needs a replacement for this particular situation at Diiachi. They are exhausted, over worked, and need a break. Furthermore...they are going to need more bodies to help facilitate stabilization if that's even possible. Another eye to look and verify the situation, but more importantly...they need to start talking about the end game here. We are moving forward to a full scale meltdown in 3 reactors...we may in fact be there right now at not know about it. They have 600 workers there, rotating in and out and a team from the US and perhaps other sources as well. What indication is there of three meltdowns? From what I've read, one core probably has a breach allowing toxic water to find its way out. It is a privately held facility in a sovereign nation, therefore "standard efforts and progress for that particular industry" is the expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 LOL If this wasn't so serious it would be very comical. I was wondering they they said ABOVE 1000 milisierverts well now we know..it seems thats the max on their instruments.... Over the weekend, a worker trying to measure radiation levels of the water at Reactor No. 2 saw the reading on his dosimeter jump beyond 1,000 millisieverts per hour, the highest reading on the device. The worker left the scene immediately, said Takeo Iwamoto, a spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/world/asia/29japan.html?partner=rss&emc=rss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUmetstud Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 They have 600 workers there, rotating in and out and a team from the US and perhaps other sources as well. What indication is there of three meltdowns? From what I've read, one core probably has a breach allowing toxic water to find its way out. It is a privately held facility in a sovereign nation, therefore "standard efforts and progress for that particular industry" is the expectation. From what I've heard..there's likely a partial meltdown in all three reactors with a significant breach in containment with the one...number 2 or 3 I think....and perhaps smaller breaches in the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodhi Cove Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I also want to thank so many of you for posting such concise updates to this situation. I had stepped back from the crisis due to the B.S. press releases given by Tepco and repeated by the Japanese Government. Their comment of "no immediate health risks" to those within a 12 kilometer range, was my last straw. Talk about a play on words, "no IMMEDIATE health risks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yeah thanks from me too. Whole situation is so sad for the people that live there. It may be a multi year fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 why are they suddenly finding all of this water everywhere, like in the trubine buidings and now in ditches? are the cracks getting worse as time goes on? Or was the reactor core almost empty...and in recent days they pumped them full and the cracks/holes are now below the water line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 a little more info: Officials at Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) are now attempting to locate the source of the leak, which is near the turbine building of the Number 2 reactor and around 180 feet from the sea. "The trench is located outside the building and the water contains radioactive materials," Hiro Hasegawa, a spokesman for TEPCO, told The Daily Telegraph. "There is normally no water found in this area so it is difficult to compare this to normal levels. -------------------------------- Meanwhile, there were calls for an extension to the official evacuation zone on Monday following Greenpeace reports of wider radiation contamination. Greenpeace tests in Iitate village, located 25 miles from the nuclear plant and 12 miles outside the evacuation zone, showed radiation levels of up to ten microsieverts per hour. Referring to the yearly recommended limit of 1,000 microsieverts, Jan van de Putte, a radiation safety expert at Greenpeace, said: "It is clearly not safe for people to remain in Iitate, especially children and pregnant women, when it could mean receiving the maximum allowed annual dose of radiation in only a few days." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8411193/Highly-radioactive-water-leaks-outside-Japans-nuclear-plant-building.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUmetstud Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 a little more info: Officials at Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) are now attempting to locate the source of the leak, which is near the turbine building of the Number 2 reactor and around 180 feet from the sea. "The trench is located outside the building and the water contains radioactive materials," Hiro Hasegawa, a spokesman for TEPCO, told The Daily Telegraph. "There is normally no water found in this area so it is difficult to compare this to normal levels. -------------------------------- Meanwhile, there were calls for an extension to the official evacuation zone on Monday following Greenpeace reports of wider radiation contamination. Greenpeace tests in Iitate village, located 25 miles from the nuclear plant and 12 miles outside the evacuation zone, showed radiation levels of up to ten microsieverts per hour. Referring to the yearly recommended limit of 1,000 microsieverts, Jan van de Putte, a radiation safety expert at Greenpeace, said: "It is clearly not safe for people to remain in Iitate, especially children and pregnant women, when it could mean receiving the maximum allowed annual dose of radiation in only a few days." http://www.telegraph...t-building.html it's greenpeace so I'd take what they say with a grain of salt. The yearly average radiation dose in the US is actually 6200 uSV or 6.2 mSV...620 mrem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Mentioned it a few pages back, but in a BWR, any leak in the steam or 'condensate' system will leak water that has been in the core. The steam turbines themselves will have mild radioactive contamination in normal operation, core damage and the entire steam plant can be grossly contaminated. In a PWR, the reactor and heat exchangers (were non-radioactive water is flashed to steam) are inside containment, so only a catastrophic failure of the steam generator (heat exchanger) U-tubes can contaminate the steam plant, and at least on the ship, each steam generator could be isolated with valves if that occured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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