jburns Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Having worked in a BWR for a year or so, I suspect that much of the piping and/or critical cooling systems are protected by the floor of the refueling level (the areas blown off by the hydrogen blasts). IF (big if) there wasn't a tremendous amount of penetration from the explosions (and by the looks of the pictures, most of the energy from the blasts went upwards, deflecting off the very thick floor of the refueling level) into the secondary containment area, then resuming normal cooling pumping operations very well could work.....but we shall see! Good post. I agree and see this as the best, and maybe last, chance to get this under a semblance of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 i still believe most govs would do pretty much what they are doing.. whether or not they are intentionally holding back info. there is a bit of anti-japanese sentiment throughout the whole ordeal from many sources and commentators imo. Yep. These people are essentially trapped near there anywhere due to the quake. With winds blowing offshore.... Then again every nation aside of Japan is saying something much worse and we supposedly have feet on the ground there...so Having worked in a BWR for a year or so, I suspect that much of the piping and/or critical cooling systems are protected by the floor of the refueling level (the areas blown off by the hydrogen blasts). IF (big if) there wasn't a tremendous amount of penetration from the explosions (and by the looks of the pictures, most of the energy from the blasts went upwards, deflecting off the very thick floor of the refueling level) into the secondary containment area, then resuming normal cooling pumping operations very well could work.....but we shall see! That's the ? --- NHK was just showing some early video. They say there is smoke coming from the plant and that TELCO is saying it's probably radioactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Japanese culture tends to be very stoic and conservative. That is probably why they are holding back a bit and not undermining the collective effort by issuing regular mass panic status updates. Here in America we are talking iodide pills and radioactive clouds floating overhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkman Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 So there are TWO spent rod pools in trouble. One likely dry and potentially unstable.....the other boiling off the water?? 4 and 3.......... Reactor in 3 with a damaged vessel..... they dam well better get power....generators.....pumps running soon........ How far is the shared pool located from the main reactors and what is the status on it? 5 and 6 have been heating up as well but the water is still above the rods, I read somewhere it is usually ~200cm above the rods and as of yesterday it was at 105cm. Hopefully with the power line they can resume normal operations at those and at the very least prevent anything else from going horribly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 5 and 6 have been heating up as well but the water is still above the rods, I read somewhere it is usually ~200cm above the rods and as of yesterday it was at 105cm. Hopefully with the power line they can resume normal operations at those and at the very least prevent anything else from going horribly wrong. I believe #4 had been fully unloaded while the other two were just 1/3 done. So the pool for old rods in #4 likely had some newly removed rods. I think the idea was that it would heat faster either way because it had more "recent" rods in the pile. The NHK footage is confusing. It looked like sunup video..sunrise was about 20 minutes ago, first light probably 45-50 minutes ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Yep. These people are essentially trapped near there anywhere due to the quake. With winds blowing offshore.... Then again every nation aside of Japan is saying something much worse and we supposedly have feet on the ground there...so just look at the gulf oil spill.. the obama admin was certainly not sharing every bit of info that they got. in fact, a lot of the same type of confusion was present there even though we had live cameras on the thing 24/7 with people analyzing it etc. sure it's a different culture so some norms may be different--i just get the feeling there are still some old wounds that people need to move on from. there is at least a weak sense that they cant be trusted etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 just look at the gulf oil spill.. the obama admin was certainly not sharing every bit of info that they got. in fact, a lot of the same type of confusion was present there even though we had live cameras on the thing 24/7 with people analyzing it etc. sure it's a different culture so some norms may be different--i just get the feeling there are still some old wounds that people need to move on from. there is at least a weak sense that they cant be trusted etc. Or perhaps it is a mistrust of power companies and rightly so. The Japanese Govt is pissed too. You are looking too deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithiaWx Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 i still believe most govs would do pretty much what they are doing.. whether or not they are intentionally holding back info. there is a bit of anti-japanese sentiment throughout the whole ordeal from many sources and commentators imo. Your an admin but does that give you a right to make such a statement like that with nothing to backup your claim that there is anti-japanese sentiment? Even one example would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 i still believe most govs would do pretty much what they are doing.. whether or not they are intentionally holding back info. there is a bit of anti-japanese sentiment throughout the whole ordeal from many sources and commentators imo. I think that may be some of their own fault. TEPCO wants to avoid questions and not answer them. They also 'don't know' anytime a question is asked. There is a lot of uncertainty between the government and TEPCO and other agencies and they aren't speaking with 'one voice'. That leads to concern among the population that things are being hidden or there is confusion on what is actually happening. I can think of a couple of examples: These aren't exact quotes: TEPCO: May use helicopters to pour water on reactors Edano: Helicopters won't be used due to radiation levels NHK: *Shows helicopter on TV headed for plant Edano: Reactor #3 vessel may be damaged Safety Agency: Reactor #3 vessel not damaged Edano has also mis-spoke numerous times on what the radiation levels actually are, confusing microseverts and milliseverts. TEPCO has confused the measurement for pressure, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Your an admin but does that give you a right to make such a statement like that with nothing to backup your claim that there is anti-japanese sentiment? Even one example would be appreciated. there have been numerous sentiments analyzing the japanese psyche and why it makes them not want to tell us how horrible things really are. it's a pretty standard government or corporation move and happens in just about every incident of this magnitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I thought this was insightful... from the BBC: "Andreas Persbo, director of the London-based Verification Research, Training and Information Centre, has told Bloomberg that although Japan is legally obliged to provide information to the IAEA and its member states, officials in Tokyo simply may not be able to do so. "In a crisis situation, the only ones that really know what is going on are at the site and they don't have time to pick up the telephone," he explained." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Or perhaps it is a mistrust of power companies and rightly so. The Japanese Govt is pissed too. You are looking too deep. perhaps.. just sharing a thought that's popped into my mind repeatedly both in reading this thread and watching people on tv. considering all the rampant speculation everywhere im not sure why it would even strike a nerve with anyone that i'd comment on such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 perhaps.. just sharing a thought that's popped into my mind repeatedly both in reading this thread and watching people on tv. considering all the rampant speculation everywhere im not sure why it would even strike a nerve with anyone that i'd comment on such. The nuke companies over there have gotten whacked a few times for not telling the truth. I think a couple years ago a few guys got dosed so bad they died and it took a LONG time for them to even admit it. Hence the distrust. When I see an engineer for this exact reactor on Fox saying they're in a partial meltdown or worse and the head of the NRC says the #4 spent pool is dry and steaming.....I believe those two. They can probably get away with some of this because the winds are now offshore. Notice no plant readings all night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 5 and 6 have been heating up as well but the water is still above the rods, I read somewhere it is usually ~200cm above the rods and as of yesterday it was at 105cm. Hopefully with the power line they can resume normal operations at those and at the very least prevent anything else from going horribly wrong. They claim to have a working diesel generator at reactor 6 to operate cooling systems both there and at reactor 5. I don't think it's been made known whether or not they've actually proceeded with that effort, and if they haven't, why they haven't. Now if I remember correctly, after the earthquake and tsunami at the Daini #2 plant, they had to replace the pump motors to get the cooling systems back online. I think they are running on AC power down there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The nuke companies over there have gotten whacked a few times for not telling the truth. I think a couple years ago a few guys got dosed so bad they died and it took a LONG time for them to even admit it. Hence the distrust. When I see an engineer for this exact reactor on Fox saying they're in a partial meltdown or worse and the head of the NRC says the #4 spent pool is dry and steaming.....I believe those two. They can probably get away with some of this because the winds are now offshore. Notice no plant readings all night? makes sense.. my comments were not an indictment of everyone anyway. it was just something i felt like i picked up on and im not usually way off base with that. if i am here then im sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithiaWx Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 there have been numerous sentiments analyzing the japanese psyche and why it makes them not want to tell us how horrible things really are. it's a pretty standard government or corporation move and happens in just about every incident of this magnitude. I think the distrust is with the government not the Japanese people. Everything I have seen, there has been an outpouring of support for those poor people. Distrust with the government is common as you said and I just don't feel like it is anti-Japanese sentiment I think it's an anti-Japanese government sentiment and a anti-corporate sentiment. Regardless I think I see what your saying I just interpreted your comment as people were distrustful and being hateful to the Japanese people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 makes sense.. my comments were not an indictment of everyone anyway. it was just something i felt like i picked up on and im not usually way off base with that. if i am here then im sorry. I'm listening to these guys on NHK. Their take on things is so much different than the former GE engineers, NRC and the rest of the world. They should just run the Leslie Nielsen clip at the end of this video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutts Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Flaws in Japan’s Leadership Deepen Sense of Crisis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I think the distrust is with the government not the Japanese people. Everything I have seen, there has been an outpouring of support for those poor people. Distrust with the government is common as you said and I just don't feel like it is anti-Japanese sentiment I think it's an anti-Japanese government sentiment and a anti-corporate sentiment. Regardless I think I see what your saying I just interpreted your comment as people were distrustful and being hateful to the Japanese people. well the japanese people themselves dont really have anything to do with this. so it would all be on the gov/industry. that said, as myself and others have noted, there has been general chaos which is detrimental to good communication, then there is a potential environmental disaster which pretty much any gov/industry would try to downplay until it's blatantly obvious that they can't any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jburns Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Flaws in Japan’s Leadership Deepen Sense of Crisis There it is. They are not like us so therefore they are flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterymix Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The Dow went up 100 points on speculation that newly rigged power cables would improve the cooling process. After the SM closed, this came out: [4:25 p.m. ET Wednesday, 5:25 a.m. Thursday in Tokyo] A spent fuel pool at Japan's stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is dry, resulting in "extremely high" radiation levels, the head of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said Wednesday."What we believe at this time is that there has been a hydrogen explosion in this unit due to an uncovering of the fuel in the fuel pool," Gregory Jaczko told a House energy and commerce subcommittee hearing. "We believe that secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent fuel pool, and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott747 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 No idea if this is the legit webcam. Didn't even think about looking for one until yesterday and it was said that TEPCO had made it password protected. Pulled it up about 15min ago and it was working. Fair distance off and had a static image of the site. You could see some what looked like smoke/steam coming from the plant. Again can't confirm if it really is the Daiichi plant. As of now it's back to not showing anything - http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/f1-np/camera/index-j.html OT - For the financial geeks... Bucky/Yen. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwang0725 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The Dow went up 100 points on speculation that newly rigged power cables would improve the cooling process. After the SM closed, this came out: What I don't get is this. How does Gregory Jaczko know? There must be some sort of classified intel that's he's privy to in order to make those statements. If so, why not share with the Japanese gov't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUmetstud Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm just kind of thinking aloud here...if the pool is basically empty at #4 and the fuel is heating up, isn't there some danger that dumping water on that could actually more radiation being released in a steam or perhaps a hydrogen explosion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 What I don't get is this. How does Gregory Jaczko know? There must be some sort of classified intel that's he's privy to in order to make those statements. If so, why not share with the Japanese gov't? One of the MSM stations mentioned his comments earlier. What they said was we have people on the ground over there consulting. I think they said from the NRC and another body perhaps the military. I'm going to bet you a buck that we have satellites that can see what is going on too. I'd just about guarantee we have retasked some radiation detecting satellites and they're buzzing back all sorts of imagery. There is just no way he would make that type of statement unless we knew for sure. I'm just kind of thinking aloud here...if the pool is basically empty at #4 and the fuel is heating up, isn't there some danger that dumping water on that could actually more radiation being released in a steam or perhaps a hydrogen explosion? That's my thought too. I remember once when I was a kid I was boiling water and then went out to do something. I came back and the water was gone and the pot was super heated. I had the idea that adding water to it was a good idea to cool it off, the moment I did it erupted in a giant pile of steam. Then again what are their alternatives? They can't let them sit there dry or this will go on for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm just kind of thinking aloud here...if the pool is basically empty at #4 and the fuel is heating up, isn't there some danger that dumping water on that could actually more radiation being released in a steam or perhaps a hydrogen explosion? Yes. In fact when they dumped water on the reactor in Chernobyl, (killing all of their helicopter pilots in the process from exposure), they didn't realize at the time that doing so could push the rods together - creating criticality and a second much worse explosion that would spray more rod fragments into the environment. Again, keep in mind that the fallout from Chernobyl was from only 5% of the nuclear fuel since the rest melted through the lower levels of the reactor and the concrete substructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaoPos Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm just kind of thinking aloud here...if the pool is basically empty at #4 and the fuel is heating up, isn't there some danger that dumping water on that could actually more radiation being released in a steam or perhaps a hydrogen explosion? Seems like a plausible scenario. Goig by with what we!be heard. Although, I'm not sure how hot he spent fuel rods are and how hot you would need them to get to the oxidization process to release hyrdorgen gas as well.( like what happened in the reactors 1-3) also, I'm sure you would need a significant flow rate ( gpms) to actually put more water in than whats being steamed off. Hence, why I'm not sure how many gpms the helos and " riot guns" can provide. All speculation of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Let me make this clear: The ONLY solution right now is to SMOTHER IT WITH SAND AND BORON AND OTHER NEUTRON ABSORBING MATERIALS. They need remote controlled dump trucks ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Has anyone thought about whether there may be damage to the racks in the spent fuel pools? I mean, reactor #3 looks terrible from the outside and had a pretty massive explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 What I don't get is this. How does Gregory Jaczko know? There must be some sort of classified intel that's he's privy to in order to make those statements. If so, why not share with the Japanese gov't? Could be drone imagery. Not sure when or if global hawk has hit the site tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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