Japan Nuclear Crisis Part II

[SP]

Print has been solid.

On air. Horrible, imo. Granted I haven't watched much of it but when I have it has been terrible with how they butcher some of the data. I understand that with so many reactors it can be confusing but countless times when I've watched they continuously refer to the wrong reactors or specific issues of the reactors. Not to mention that when one of the channels has somebody that seems to be clearing up any misconceptions, or doing a great job of explaining the situation they are constantly cut off or have little time to explain.

On air has to FILL time so it is normally the case. 1% matters......the rest is to keep you watching which is their primary goal.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

Spent fuel pools contain more highly radioactive fuel than the reactor cores. And the spent fuel pools at all U.S. nuclear plants are located outside the reactor containment structure. When the spent fuel pools fill up, spent fuel is stored in concrete casks outside the plant. Thus, spent fuel is a softer target that could yield graver consequences than an aircraft crashing through the reactor containment structure.

What is the spent fuel pool?

The spent fuel pool is a 45-feet deep concrete pit that stores highly radioactive fuel assemblies after their removal from the reactor core. Water storage is required because spent fuel assemblies continue to emit considerable amounts of both heat and radiation for many years. The fuel pool water is continuously cooled to remove the heat produced by the spent fuel assemblies. Without cooling, the fuel pool water will heat up and boil. If the water boils or drains away, the spent fuel assemblies will overheat and either melt or catch on fire. NRC studies have estimated that many thousands of people living within 50 miles could die from the radiation released when spent fuel assemblies melt or catch on fire.

Where are the spent fuel pools located?

The spent fuel pools at nuclear power plants with pressurized water reactors are located in buildings adjacent to the reactor containment structures. Typically called the Fuel Handling Buildings, these structures are designed to withstand nature (e.g. earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and snow storms) but not man (e.g., sabotage and accidental or intentional aircraft strikes). The Fuel Handling Buildings are basically standard, industrial-grade buildings (much like K-Mart but without the neon signs).

The spent fuel pools themselves are generally below ground level within the Fuel Handling Buildings. Consequently, it is less likely for water to drain out of the spent fuel pool when its floor or walls are damaged than if it were located above ground.

The spent fuel pools for nuclear power plants with boiling water reactors are located above ground in the building surrounding the primary reactor containment structure. This can make some boiling water reactors even more vulnerable. The reactor containment structure is often a steel-lined, reinforced concrete building whereas the spent fuel pool building is usually made simply of reinforced concrete.

An aircraft—or missile—would not need to completely level the fuel building to cause harm. It would merely need to crack the concrete wall or floor of the spent fuel pool and drain the water out. The spent fuel pool is designed to remain intact following an earthquake, but it is not designed to withstand aircraft impacts and explosive forces.

http://www.ucsusa.or...l-security.html

Yes, the site is anti-nuc, but I found the building specs and info above enlightening in regards to what is currently going on.

When the Nevada dumping site fell through most plants had no choice but to store spent rods on site. I know Pilgrim does and it's a big bone of contention among the ant-nuke crowd here.

--

"As Robert Alvarez, a former nuclear energy adviser to President Bill Clinton, has written, if these waste containers, euphemistically called “ponds,” were to be damaged in an explosion and lose their cooling and radiation-shielding water, they could burst into flame from the resulting burning of the highly flammable zirconium cladding of the fuel rods, blasting perhaps three to nine times as much of these materials into the air as was released by the Chernobyl reactor disaster. (And that’s if just one reactor blows!) Each pool, Alvarez says, generally contains five to ten times as much nuclear material as the reactors themselves. Alvarez cites a 1997 Nuclear Regulatory Commission study that predicted that a waste pool fire could render a 188-square-mile area “uninhabitable” and do $59 billion worth of damage (but that was 13 years ago). "

I've got to admit, I did not know that they stored spent fuel in the same building as a reactor. Doesn't seem very bright...if a reactor goes off all the spent fuel is there too.

We are coming up towards dawn in Tokyo...I bet we see the burst of information again starting in a few hours.

[Scott747]

yes, for sure. Let's hope that the spent fuel doesn't catch fire and burn.

Based on what Jaczko (NRC) told Congress #4 could be a lost cause though it does appear he isn't 100% certain that the fuel pool is completely dry. I think that was the entire emergency this last 24 hours and why the helicopters were introduced to try and get water into that pool.

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/house-panel-to-question-nuclear-regulatory-and-energy-chiefs-face/?hp

[cut]

When the Nevada dumping site fell through most plants had no choice but to store spent rods on site. I know Pilgrim does and it's a big bone of contention among the ant-nuke crowd here.

--

"As Robert Alvarez, a former nuclear energy adviser to President Bill Clinton, has written, if these waste containers, euphemistically called “ponds,” were to be damaged in an explosion and lose their cooling and radiation-shielding water, they could burst into flame from the resulting burning of the highly flammable zirconium cladding of the fuel rods, blasting perhaps three to nine times as much of these materials into the air as was released by the Chernobyl reactor disaster. (And that’s if just one reactor blows!) Each pool, Alvarez says, generally contains five to ten times as much nuclear material as the reactors themselves. Alvarez cites a 1997 Nuclear Regulatory Commission study that predicted that a waste pool fire could render a 188-square-mile area “uninhabitable” and do $59 billion worth of damage (but that was 13 years ago). "

I've got to admit, I did not know that they stored spent fuel in the same building as a reactor. Doesn't seem very bright...if a reactor goes off all the spent fuel is there too.

We are coming up towards dawn in Tokyo...I bet we see the burst of information again starting in a few hours.

Agreed, this is opening my eyes to an aspect of Nuke power that I had no clue about. I would be willing to bet that most are not aware of the storage facilities that coal fired plants use either. That "chemical flood" in Hungary was another example of an industrial process creating waste that none of us consumers thinks about. Scary indeed.

[SP]

Spent fuel pools contain more highly radioactive fuel than the reactor cores. And the spent fuel pools at all U.S. nuclear plants are located outside the reactor containment structure. When the spent fuel pools fill up, spent fuel is stored in concrete casks outside the plant. Thus, spent fuel is a softer target that could yield graver consequences than an aircraft crashing through the reactor containment structure.

What is the spent fuel pool?

The spent fuel pool is a 45-feet deep concrete pit that stores highly radioactive fuel assemblies after their removal from the reactor core. Water storage is required because spent fuel assemblies continue to emit considerable amounts of both heat and radiation for many years. The fuel pool water is continuously cooled to remove the heat produced by the spent fuel assemblies. Without cooling, the fuel pool water will heat up and boil. If the water boils or drains away, the spent fuel assemblies will overheat and either melt or catch on fire. NRC studies have estimated that many thousands of people living within 50 miles could die from the radiation released when spent fuel assemblies melt or catch on fire.

Where are the spent fuel pools located?

The spent fuel pools at nuclear power plants with pressurized water reactors are located in buildings adjacent to the reactor containment structures. Typically called the Fuel Handling Buildings, these structures are designed to withstand nature (e.g. earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and snow storms) but not man (e.g., sabotage and accidental or intentional aircraft strikes). The Fuel Handling Buildings are basically standard, industrial-grade buildings (much like K-Mart but without the neon signs).

The spent fuel pools themselves are generally below ground level within the Fuel Handling Buildings. Consequently, it is less likely for water to drain out of the spent fuel pool when its floor or walls are damaged than if it were located above ground.

The spent fuel pools for nuclear power plants with boiling water reactors are located above ground in the building surrounding the primary reactor containment structure. This can make some boiling water reactors even more vulnerable. The reactor containment structure is often a steel-lined, reinforced concrete building whereas the spent fuel pool building is usually made simply of reinforced concrete.

An aircraft—or missile—would not need to completely level the fuel building to cause harm. It would merely need to crack the concrete wall or floor of the spent fuel pool and drain the water out. The spent fuel pool is designed to remain intact following an earthquake, but it is not designed to withstand aircraft impacts and explosive forces.

http://www.ucsusa.or...l-security.html

Yes, the site is anti-nuc, but I found the building specs and info above enlightening in regards to what is currently going on.

one of the biggest vulnerabilities that exist in America per two very close nuclear physicist I know. I cant recall everything they said regarding chems and elements but it was a lot and all bad...including our waste management policies. It goes beyond just reactor waste but also they included medical and other processes. They are both pro nuclear but not supportive of current policies and processes. They are very worried about reactor 3 which contains some plutonium....as well what type of rods are stored in 4.

[winterymix]

Canada has a reportedly harmless reactor water leak.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/03/16/pickering-nuclear-leak.html

[LakeEffectKing]

When the Nevada dumping site fell through most plants had no choice but to store spent rods on site. I know Pilgrim does and it's a big bone of contention among the ant-nuke crowd here.

--

"As Robert Alvarez, a former nuclear energy adviser to President Bill Clinton, has written, if these waste containers, euphemistically called “ponds,” were to be damaged in an explosion and lose their cooling and radiation-shielding water, they could burst into flame from the resulting burning of the highly flammable zirconium cladding of the fuel rods, blasting perhaps three to nine times as much of these materials into the air as was released by the Chernobyl reactor disaster. (And that’s if just one reactor blows!) Each pool, Alvarez says, generally contains five to ten times as much nuclear material as the reactors themselves. Alvarez cites a 1997 Nuclear Regulatory Commission study that predicted that a waste pool fire could render a 188-square-mile area “uninhabitable” and do $59 billion worth of damage (but that was 13 years ago). "

I've got to admit, I did not know that they stored spent fuel in the same building as a reactor. Doesn't seem very bright...if a reactor goes off all the spent fuel is there too.

We are coming up towards dawn in Tokyo...I bet we see the burst of information again starting in a few hours.

In order to refuel, the reactor core is cooled, then flooded to the level of the spent fuel pool, which is adjacent to the top of the primary containment. A keyway is opened up between the pool and the flooded reactor top. The old and new fuel is kept under water at all times during refueling, so the ease to refuel is directly associated with the proximity of the spent fuel pool to the reactor.

[SP]

In order to refuel, the reactor core is cooled, then flooded to the level of the spent fuel pool, which is above the top of the primary containment. The old and new fuel is kept under water at all times during refueling, so the ease to refuel is directly associated with the proximity of the spent fuel to the reactor.

but its the long term storage and inventory buildup that becomes an additional concern.

The spent rod counts at plant 1 were in the thousands if I am not mistaken.

[LakeEffectKing]

but its the long term storage and inventory buildup that becomes an additional concern.

The spent rod counts at plant 1 were in the thousands if I am not mistaken.

Very much agree. If I'm not mistaken, the spent fuel pools were only designed as temporary storage sites.....and thus the issues....I bet they will be address here in the US...or at least get SOME attention, but I'm afraid that the extreme environmentalists won't like any option...

[cut]

All I have to say is bring on the wind turbines and solar cells. I was a proponent of nuke, but I have changed my tune with what I have learned this past week.

[JoMo]

but its the long term storage and inventory buildup that becomes an additional concern.

The spent rod counts at plant 1 were in the thousands if I am not mistaken.

This was the Kyodo headline last night. Not sure if the information is accurate as it seems TEPCO has been having trouble getting information straight.

"Pool stores 514 spent fuel rods at Fukushima No.3 reactor: TEPCO"

[friedmators]

All I have to say is bring on the wind turbines and solar cells. I was a proponent of nuke, but I have changed my tune with what I have learned this past week.

What did you learn? Enlighten us!

[Plokoon111]

Is the lack of news due to nighttime in Japan?

[JoMo]

Is the lack of news due to nighttime in Japan?

Pretty much. TEPCO/Edano usually have a morning news conference so that's when things pick up.

[cut]

What did you learn? Enlighten us!

About the storage of spent fuel rods. And the whole earthquake safety chart about 20 pages back, with the reactor by NYC being deemed the most risky plant in the US.

[ThePhotoGuy]

2010: More on the power line being laid to the Fukushima Daiichi plant to help restore the reactor cooling systems: Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) spokesman Naoki Tsunoda has said it is almost complete, and that engineers plan to test it "as soon as possible", according to the Associated Press. Reviving the electric-powered pumps might allow the engineers to finaly cool the overheated reactors and spent fuel storage ponds.

BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

[Scott747]

I think we will know something relatively soon. Just going by what Chu and Jaczko told Congress it was the assumed empty fuel pool at #4 that caused the call for evacs.

The American Embassy in Tokyo has told American to evacuate to a radius of “approximately 50 miles” from Fukushima, the chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission testified before the House subcommittee, based on advice from the commission. The advice reflects a far more grave assessment of the situation at the stricken reactors than the decisions made by the Japanese themselves do; the Japanese have told everyone within 20 kilometers, about 12 miles, to evacuate, and those between 20 and 30 kilometers, or about 19 miles, to take shelter. And the recommendation comes as the Japanese government has indicated that it will be releasing less information about the situation.

The recommendation was based on what the commission would do “for a comparable sitiuation in the U.S.’’ said the chairman, Gregory Jaczko.

Mr. Jaczko (pronounced YAZZ-koe) said the commission believed that all the water in the spent fuel pool at Fukushima Daiichi unit 4 had boiled dry and that as a result, “we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures.”

In fact, experts say that it would be hard to approach a pool that was dry because radiation levels would be so high, he said. In a normally operating pool, the water provides not only cooling but radiation shielding.

[ThePhotoGuy]

2014: A special police van equipped with a water cannon - normally used to disperse rioters - meanwhile arrived at the power station early on Thursday. Tepco plans to use the cannon to spray water onto reactor 4's spent fuel storage pond. The cannon is thought to be strong enough to allow engineers to remain a safe distance from the complex and limit their exposure to radiation.

BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

[JoMo]

Fact sheet, may have been posted before:

http://resources.nei...s_Key_Facts.pdf

• Used nuclear fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant is stored in seven pools (one at each of the six reactors, plus a shared pool) and in a dry container storage facility (containing nine casks).
• Sixty percent of the used fuel on site is stored in the shared pool, in a building separated from the reactor buildings; 34 percent of the used fuel is distributed between the six reactor fuel storage pools, and the remaining six percent is stored in the nine dry storage containers. There are no safety concerns regarding the used fuel in dry storage at Fukushima Daiichi.
• Used fuel pools are robust concrete and steel structures designed to protect the fuel from even the most severe events. Pools are designed with systems to maintain the temperature and water levels sufficient to provide cooling and radiation shielding.
• The water level in a used fuel pool typically is 16 feet or more above the top of the fuel assemblies.
• The used fuel pools at the Fukushima Daiichi reactors are located at the top of the reactor buildings for ease of handling during refueling operations.
• The used fuel pools are designed so that the water in the pool cannot drain down as a result of damage to the piping or cooling systems. The pools do not have drains in the sides or the floor of the pool structure. The only way to rapidly drain down the pool is if there is structural damage to the walls or the floor.

[99lsfm2]

With the lack of news right now you may want to take a break and read Dr. Masters blog:

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/article.html

[samdman95]

BBC: 2027: Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has said it is also concerned about the spent fuel storage pool inside the building housing reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi. The pools at both reactors 3 and 4 are reportedly boiling - there may not even be any water left in reactor 4's pool - and unless the spent fuel rods are cooled down, they could emit large quantities radiation. Radioactive steam was earlier said to be coming from reactor 3's pool. If cooling operations did not proceed well, the situation would "reach a critical stage in a couple of days", an agency official told the Kyodo news agency.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

2010: More on the power line being laid to the Fukushima Daiichi plant to help restore the reactor cooling systems: Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) spokesman Naoki Tsunoda has said it is almost complete, and that engineers plan to test it "as soon as possible", according to the Associated Press. Reviving the electric-powered pumps might allow the engineers to finaly cool the overheated reactors and spent fuel storage ponds.

BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-12307698

But the buildings are all in shambles. Flipping the switch may not do much after at least three explosions and a few fires.

--

The NRC obviously has information that conflicts with the Japanese. Every other country is telling people to get away yet the Japanese keep saying it is under control Someone is right and someone is wrong.

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=134600420

The chief of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said Wednesday that all the water is gone from one of the spent fuel pools at Japan's most troubled nuclear plant, but Japanese officials denied it.

NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko is correct, this would mean there's nothing to stop the fuel rods from getting hotter and ultimately melting down. The outer shell of the rods could also ignite with enough force to propel the radioactive fuel inside over a wide area.

[Scott747]

Fact sheet, may have been posted before:

http://resources.nei...s_Key_Facts.pdf

• Used nuclear fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant is stored in seven pools (one at each of the six reactors, plus a shared pool) and in a dry container storage facility (containing nine casks).
• Sixty percent of the used fuel on site is stored in the shared pool, in a building separated from the reactor buildings; 34 percent of the used fuel is distributed between the six reactor fuel storage pools, and the remaining six percent is stored in the nine dry storage containers. There are no safety concerns regarding the used fuel in dry storage at Fukushima Daiichi.
• Used fuel pools are robust concrete and steel structures designed to protect the fuel from even the most severe events. Pools are designed with systems to maintain the temperature and water levels sufficient to provide cooling and radiation shielding.
• The water level in a used fuel pool typically is 16 feet or more above the top of the fuel assemblies.
• The used fuel pools at the Fukushima Daiichi reactors are located at the top of the reactor buildings for ease of handling during refueling operations.
• The used fuel pools are designed so that the water in the pool cannot drain down as a result of damage to the piping or cooling systems. The pools do not have drains in the sides or the floor of the pool structure. The only way to rapidly drain down the pool is if there is structural damage to the walls or the floor.

I had posted that yesterday in the old thread when all the attention was turning towards the problems with #4. After seeing the pictures it wouldn't at all be surprising that there was some damage done.

Either the info that Jaczko passed along is correct (and they are ****ed) or the pool still retains some amount of water, though leaking/boiling, and it's a race against time.

[Ian]

Is the lack of news due to nighttime in Japan?

this thread usually heats up late afternoon into evening. it's almost like the japanese time problems to coincide with prime time on the East Coast.

[samdman95]

The lack of warning by Japanese officials is becoming suspicious. Anyone have any idea why?

2035: US officials have concluded that the Japanese warnings have been insufficient, and that, deliberately or not, they have understated the potential threat of what is taking place inside the nuclear facility, according to the New York Times. Gregory Jaczko, the chairman of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission, earlier said he believed that all the water in the spent fuel pool at reactor 4 had boiled dry, leaving fuel rods stored there exposed. "We believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures," he told a Congressional committee.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

For Cavuto right now:

GE scientist that resigned over this reactor flaws...Dale Bridenbaugh...5 of the 6 units are Mark 1 type reactors, unit 1 was built by GE, others were GE designed but built by the others...same thing though.

"problem with the mark 1 design is we found that those containments had not be designed to withstand the maximum loads they may experience in a loss of coolant accident."

"conclusion yes there were a lot of problems, major major modifications had to be made to the containment structure.....mods were or should have been implemenet at fukijima"

"ludicrous to say the plant has withstood that, you just have to look at the condition now, we have 3 reactors that are either melted down, partially melted down or certainly with major fuel damage, we have a 4th reactor whos spent fuel pool has boiled dry and is releasing radioactivity into the atmosphere in an uncontained manner"

"i dont know if they can avoid a meltdown, from what I can see they have already suffered at least partial meltdowns. There's no way that the things happening there can happen without partial significant fuel damage"

"unit 2 appears there has been a major break of some kind in the reactor containment system"

[ThePhotoGuy]

The lack of warning by Japanese officials is becoming suspicious. Anyone have any idea why?

2035: US officials have concluded that the Japanese warnings have been insufficient, and that, deliberately or not, they have understated the potential threat of what is taking place inside the nuclear facility, according to the New York Times. Gregory Jaczko, the chairman of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission, earlier said he believed that all the water in the spent fuel pool at reactor 4 had boiled dry, leaving fuel rods stored there exposed. "We believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures," he told a Congressional committee.

Maybe because yesterday they said things were "under control" and they weren't. They said the fire was out and then they say it actually was not out. The list goes on...

[Ian]

Maybe because yesterday they said things were "under control" and they weren't. They said the fire was out and then they say it actually was not out. The list goes on...

i still believe most govs would do pretty much what they are doing.. whether or not they are intentionally holding back info. there is a bit of anti-japanese sentiment throughout the whole ordeal from many sources and commentators imo.

[LakeEffectKing]

But the buildings are all in shambles. Flipping the switch may not do much after at least three explosions and a few fires.

--

The NRC obviously has information that conflicts with the Japanese. Every other country is telling people to get away yet the Japanese keep saying it is under control Someone is right and someone is wrong.

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=134600420

The chief of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said Wednesday that all the water is gone from one of the spent fuel pools at Japan's most troubled nuclear plant, but Japanese officials denied it.

NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko is correct, this would mean there's nothing to stop the fuel rods from getting hotter and ultimately melting down. The outer shell of the rods could also ignite with enough force to propel the radioactive fuel inside over a wide area.

Having worked in a BWR for a year or so, I suspect that much of the piping and/or critical cooling systems are protected by the floor of the refueling level (the areas blown off by the hydrogen blasts). IF (big if) there wasn't a tremendous amount of penetration from the explosions (and by the looks of the pictures, most of the energy from the blasts went upwards, deflecting off the very thick floor of the refueling level) into the secondary containment area, then resuming normal cooling pumping operations very well could work.....but we shall see!

[SP]

So there are TWO spent rod pools in trouble. One likely dry and potentially unstable.....the other boiling off the water??

4 and 3..........

Reactor in 3 with a damaged vessel.....

they dam well better get power....generators.....pumps running soon........

How far is the shared pool located from the main reactors and what is the status on it?