HoarfrostHubb Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 They're sending in a team of the elite to do the job. This team includes The Cast of Jersey Shore, Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton, Charlie Sheen, Sarah Palin , Tom Cruise, Tyra Banks, Fox News and Mel Gibson. I have faith they can get the job done in extreme conditions. I wish them godspeed. well, seriously, irobot is sending 4 specially built robots this weekend (earlier post). Designed for military, construction purposes. Not sure what they can really accomplish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterymix Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Everyone thinks that now that they've got a power line (allegedly) run to the site, that all is well. That's could end up being the easiest part of the job. Instead of using a robust, stable source of continuous AC power to run questionable pumps built into the system, why not use that power to run something like snowguns? Obviously, the air and water are above freezing so artificial snow is out of the question, but by positioning some guns that produce a continuous jet of high pressure aerated water, the fuel rods could be kept wetter and hopefully, the water will pool around them over time. There would be a continuous settling of air and radioactivity if done correctly. Concurrently, bulldozers could be brought in to create cofferdams to contain runoff. This would certainly calm the rods and provide downward flow of air, water and mist to suppress radioactive particles from becoming airborne. This would buy some time, a few days, for brainstorming and long term solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJW155 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Will we detect it - yes. Probably already are. Will it create health effects? Likely none that can be measured based on the Science that is well established regarding radiation exposure. What about the food chain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 What about the food chain? This is not a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 You're just big boned. Having done hazmat work for years in just regular level B and C gear (chem only), it is very hard to do all but the most basic tasks. The rad suits only offer some protection, none vs gamma even if there is lower levels of rad, they will only have minutes or seconds to do things, then get out, change crews, decon, etc etc etc disastah Yea my Pfizer days in bromine protective suits flashed through my head several times. My hands and gloves were full of sweat water after a half hour of work. The gloves are clumsy, the face shields reduce your vision, the suits are intolerable, the O 2 SCBA tanks are heavy, nightmare. Bone this by the way LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.Zoniac Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 <br />How can they go in and fix anything if the place is hot?<br /><br />Send in the roombas<br /><br /><br /><br />EXACTLY! - That's the point. They guys in/near there now are all sacrificial lambs. They are not even wearing full anti-radiation suits or equipment. None of that will protect against the worst gamma rays. Unfortunately most of them will be like the sacrificial lambs in Russia.....they will be dead soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 <br /><br /><br /> G D:..............I'm not discounting what you said, just challenging your trust. I'd trust the Japanese gov a lot more than TEPCO, (and that's where the J-gov was at first getting most of it's info). I don't think we're detecting dangerous levels in the U.S. right now either. The question is whether or not Japan goes Chernobyl in some form, in the amounts of radiation the various reactors will throw out at a later date. We know the cement casing won't do a thing to eliminate radiation, and they are not even at that point of action yet. They are still working on Holy Mary temp fixes for cooling. So again, in the longer term - weeks/months - we still don't know what we don't know. Well where are the readings down wind? What is going to happen when the winds shift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkman Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hey some good news NEWS ADVISORY: Temperatures fall in spent nuke fuel pool at No.5 reactor: TEPCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samdman95 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 BBC: 0349: The operator of the Fukushima power plant says engineers have bored holes in the roofs of the buildings housing reactors 5 and 6 to avoid a potential gas explosion, reports AFP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The Japanese gov't is as incompetent here as TEPCO...granted the head functionary (Edano) is doing his best but he's not saying much and not providing "real" details. Some of this may be cultural and also out of a desire not to panic but a lot of the non-speak he and others provide is likely because they just don't know. As I posted earlier, the fact that the Japanese Gov't is now classifying this as a Level 5 (on par with TMI - though TMI should really be a 4 as it only had local effects), indicates how incompetent and non-understanding the Gov't authorities are... Cement casing will improve things. It worked at Chernobyl though cost a lot of helo pilot lives from what I recall... What percentage of radiation gets through? I've heard radiation leaks from Chernobyl's encasing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 BBC: 0349: The operator of the Fukushima power plant says engineers have bored holes in the roofs of the buildings housing reactors 5 and 6 to avoid a potential gas explosion, reports AFP. Gravestones early comment about vent piping was spot on, it appears 5/6 with DGP will not be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.Zoniac Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Your gap analysis is Right-On! The helicopters were too high. The Fire Department's response was not adequate and it seems they didn't have proper technical information regarding locations of the various elements inside the building. (They should have already done a Pre-Incident Site Survey Vulnerability Analysis and should have known that building inside and out as well as the plant operators. They could have gotten clearance years ago). Plus they should have called for all-out help internationally as soon as they knew things were going badly. This is the plant operator's fault - TEPCO. They should be decommissioned from ever running a n-plant again. <br />I haven't chimed in on this topic but work at similar GE BWR. I've read and seen a lot of discussion on this...both on internet and on TV. Some good, some bad. My perspective:<br /><br />1. This was worse than TMI the moment U1 had an H2 explosion last Saturday. The fact that the Japanese Gov't is only now thinking this is on the same level tells you all you need to know about their response/capabilities.<br />2. Their Emergency Response Organization seems inept - though some consideration has to be given to the magnitude of the natural disaster and its effect on people.<br />3. 50 people combatting severe accident problems on 4 Rx's plus two others needing attention - is not enough people.<br />4. The Japanese apparently did not have some of the Severe Accident mitigation procedures US nuclear developed over a decade ago. Wouldn't have prevented the problem but would have helped frame recovery.<br />5. Information from TEPCO released to public is not to be trusted for accuracy..<br />6. Information from the Japanese governement released to public is not to be trusted for accuracy.<br />7. U4 has a gaping hole in the Rx Bldg near where the Spent Fuel Pool should be.<br />8. Rx Bldgs (apparently) did not have hardened vent piping - which resulted in pressure leakage out of the RB vent ducts and into the RB - where it detonated on U1 and U3. U2 took the detonation inside primary containment / drywell - not sure why - possibly didn't want a repeat of U1 & U3. Not sure if this was a good move or not.<br /><br />Observations:<br />1. Getting an EDG running at U5 and/or U6 is good news (if true).<br />2. Getting an offsite power line is on a necessary precondition to get power back to U1-U4. Still need to connect cables from the power source to motors or switchgear in the plant. It's likely that switchgear are flooded / damaged and they will have to determ motor connections at the switchgear and bolt power cable directly to motors. Maybe they will get lucky in some cases. <br />3. Even if they get electrical power restored to some loads, that's not guarantee that there isn't mechanical damage in piping systems (or to pump/motor mountings) that will prevent getting flow to either the core or SFPs.<br />4. Media talk of battery powered cooling is rubbish. There are no dc powered cooling pumps. DC power is mainly used for controls, Motor-Operated Valve operation, etc. <br />5. Believe NOTHING you hear from TEPCO or the Japanese Gov't at this point. They do not understand plant status, haven't had since this started, and have no way of monitoring key parameters at U1-U4 in all liklihood. Plants are dark.<br />6. Its likely they have melted U1-U4 to a significant degree and it wouldn't surprise if one or more (if not all) primary containments will have at least partially failed. <br />7. The SFP's at U3 and U4 are in trouble or have had a near complete loss of water inventory. <br />8. A lot of steam has been leaking out of U3 for days. Not sure if this is SFP or Rx Vessel.<br />9. U2 may have damaged their primary containment / torus during H2 explosion Sunday. <br /><br />Questions:<br />1. Why has it taken this long to get temporary power sources to the Units? Understand they allegedly got a U6 EDG back and have some power back to U5 and U6 (hopefully for RHR and SFP cooling).<br />2. Why wasn't every portable generator and cable reel in Japan on site four days ago?<br />3. Why are they relying on an offsite power line that may require transformers to step voltage down to motor level? <br />4. Why were helicopter water drops tried from that altitude? Insanely ineffective.<br />5. Why were the initial fire fighters sent in to man fire hoses to spray on U3 Rx Bldg and not put hoses in fixed holders so personnel could back out into low dose areas?<br />6. Why were hook and ladder trucks (with higher discharge capability) only brought in after initial fire water attempts failed? Did anyone tell them that the RB Spent Fuel Pool is likely above the elevation they could reach with conventional hand held hoses?<br />7. Why did the Japanese Gov't only set up a real command centerat TEPCO property about a day ago?<br />8. Does TEPCO have a clue as to what any plant status is? If so, how? There is no ac or dc power in plant (save maybe U5/U6 now). The entire plant would be dark w/ dc batteries long since depleted. <br /><br />Prediction:<br /><br />This is going to get worse before it gets better. Optimistically, it gets no worse and the whole thing melts down and is buried with rubble that can be entombed. These people have shown no ability to work the problem, for whatever reason.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samdman95 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 What percentage of radiation gets through? I've heard radiation leaks from Chernobyl's encasing.... It's fairly contained, as people can go on tours and get up to .2 km away from it. This video gives you a really good idea of what it's like there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Your gap analysis is Right-On! The helicopters were too high. The Fire Department's response was not adequate and it seems they didn't have proper technical information regarding locations of the various elements inside the building. (They should have already done a Pre-Incident Site Survey Vulnerability Analysis and should have known that building inside and out as well as the plant operators. They could have gotten clearance years ago). Plus they should have called for all-out help internationally as soon as they knew things were going badly. This is the plant operator's fault - TEPCO. They should be decommissioned from ever running a n-plant again. <br /><br /><br /> Turn off RTE in your settings control panel will get rid of all the br stuff in ur posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.Zoniac Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Well where are the readings down wind? What is going to happen when the winds shift? LovintheWhiteFluff:..........................Readings change, depending on where the wind blows. I'm not sure if you guys all discussed this days ago, but the USS RONALD REAGAN hightailed it outta there and moved south when they were enveloped in a "ground-level radiation plume". They had tons of detection equipment and it went off - plus a bunch of its crew were contaminated and had to be washed off like you see in training exercises. When the plant disaster first occurred, the evacuation zone should have been 30 miles right off the bat. They failed on that. Now that more radiation is steadily spewing, and even since the hydrogen explosions, that evacuation zone should have been widened. Shelter in place won't do anymore; the stuff is constant and increasing. Houses are not air-tight. Even 160 miles away in Toyko, Dr. Sanjay Gupta's dosimeter was showing increasing levels of radiation -- albeit that's only a hop, skip & jump from the plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.Zoniac Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Turn off RTE in your settings control panel will get rid of all the br stuff in ur posts OK, just did, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I am getting more concerned for the Japanese, and for the US with every passing day, with respect to the reactors and possible catastrophic radiation releases. I've got a bad feeling about this There is zero threat to the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amped Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It's fairly contained, as people can go on tours and get up to .2 km away from it. This video gives you a really good idea of what it's like there now. It's all about the time of exposer. What's safe for a couple hours isn't always safe to live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 LovintheWhiteFluff:..........................Readings change, depending on where the wind blows. I'm not sure if you guys all discussed this days ago, but the USS RONALD REAGAN hightailed it outta there and moved south when they were enveloped in a "ground-level radiation plume". They had tons of detection equipment and it went off - plus a bunch of its crew were contaminated and had to be washed off like you see in training exercises. When the plant disaster first occurred, the evacuation zone should have been 30 miles right off the bat. They failed on that. Now that more radiation is steadily spewing, and even since the hydrogen explosions, that evacuation zone should have been widened. Shelter in place won't do anymore; the stuff is constant and increasing. Houses are not air-tight. Even 160 miles away in Toyko, Dr. Sanjay Gupta's dosimeter was showing increasing levels of radiation -- albeit that's only a hop, skip & jump from the plant. Yes we did discuss it. It's just frustrating to hear people say radiation levels are "this" and knowing that it's not downwind. It's all smoke and mirrors. The fact that the evac zone is no wider is maddening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebman Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Some thoughts on the current situation: No, I highly doubt that any radiation that reaches us in the US will have any short term or long term effects on health of Americans. I'm not selfish though and I've always cared more about the Japanese people - great the Americans are safe, but we aren't the only people on the planet. I have a grave concern for the people of Japan not only from this, but the earthquake and the tsunami. I believe that the Japanese government is controlling the flow of PUBLIC information because when the information is bad news, their stock market drops. Since there won't be any mushroom cloud of an explosion on one or more of the reactors, they can say whatever they want to. If another hydrogen explosion or some kind of fire occurs again, all bets are off. I love how the media is reporting that somehow electricity is going to be the savior of this problem. Maybe it'll prevent 5 and 6 from having long term problems, as they don't seem to be too badly damaged, but giving power to reactors 1-4, each of them have been damaged on some scales, is like giving power to a house with no air conditioning and expecting it to be cool during a 100 degree day. If the coolant systems don't work, and I assume they don't, then what's the next rabbit they're going to pull out of their hat? Cement? Really? That's somehow going to BLOCK radiation from spilling out? The IAEA has not, nor has the NRC confirmed a partial or full meltdown at any of the sites. At least publicly. I wonder when governments and corporations are going to stop working in their own self interests and start working for the interest of the common citizen. When are the people who were supposed to stay in their home and close their windows supposed to go outside? What about food? What about their pets? Nothing is being made public about these people who were not told to evacuate but rather just told to stay where you are and close your windows and don't go outside. The flow of information for the public has been disasterous and I'm sure many people, including the Prime Minister of Japan, will lose their jobs if not more because of this. I don't know the Japanese constitution, but what they're doing has to be criminal on some level. Roger that - I'm expecting the value of the dollar to plummet at some point - and for most govts to unpeg from valuing the USD, and when that happened, and Americans ended up experiencing 1920s Germany-styled hyperinflation, I was thinking of moving to Japan (Got a relative there) But no more. Japan is the WORST place I could go. What a BARBARIC japanese govt. Ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samdman95 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It's all about the time of exposer. What's safe for a couple hours isn't always safe to live in. The point is that the concrete/time has made it safe for people to go relatively close without worrying about radiation poisoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebman Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 There is zero threat to the United States. That's a relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.Zoniac Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I remember those poor guys up on the roof of the Russian plant, running back and forth trying to shovel off the debris for very brief turns - a minute or two, some insanely short time - in hardly any protection with a little respirator not designed to protect from radiation. They all died violently; they were interviewed at various stages from the time they volunteered to shovel up to the time they were horribly sick. They did it for the cash. Pity. anti contamination clothing (those suits you see) will not protect you against gamma or neutron rays. Beta and Alpha yes. They shouldn't be getting neutron exposure though gamma is bad enough. The suits just protect you (if worn properly) against contamination getting on you and exposing you to more radiation...respirators are needed to prevent inhalation of contamination....I would guess that typical radiation protection measures are only being loosely adhered to in a lot of cases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amped Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The point is that the concrete/time has made it safe for people to go relatively close without worrying about radiation poisoning. "Go", not "Stay" there's a big difference. Some of the firefighters and plant workers are still alive, due to the luck of the draw and the short time of exposer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Update on reactors -- Reactor No. 1 (Operation suspended after quake) Partial melting of core, cooling failure, vapor vented, building housing containment of reactor damaged by hydrogen explosion, roof blown off, seawater being pumped in. -- Reactor No. 2 (Operation suspended after quake) Damage to reactor containment structure feared, cooling failure, seawater being pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, building housing containment of reactor damaged by blast at adjacent reactor No. 3, blast sound heard near suppression chamber of containment vessel. -- Reactor No. 3 (Operation suspended after quake) Partial melting of core feared, cooling failure, vapor vented, seawater being pumped in, building housing containment of reactor badly damaged by hydrogen explosion, seawater dumped over spent-fuel storage pool by helicopter Thursday, water sprayed at it from ground three days in a row through Saturday. -- Reactor No. 4 (Under maintenance when quake struck) Renewed nuclear chain reaction feared at spent-fuel storage pool, fire at building housing containment of reactor Tuesday and Wednesday, only frame remains of reactor building roof, temperature in the pool reached 84 C on Monday. http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79535.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkman Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Update on reactors -- Reactor No. 1 (Operation suspended after quake) Partial melting of core, cooling failure, vapor vented, building housing containment of reactor damaged by hydrogen explosion, roof blown off, seawater being pumped in. -- Reactor No. 2 (Operation suspended after quake) Damage to reactor containment structure feared, cooling failure, seawater being pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, building housing containment of reactor damaged by blast at adjacent reactor No. 3, blast sound heard near suppression chamber of containment vessel. -- Reactor No. 3 (Operation suspended after quake) Partial melting of core feared, cooling failure, vapor vented, seawater being pumped in, building housing containment of reactor badly damaged by hydrogen explosion, seawater dumped over spent-fuel storage pool by helicopter Thursday, water sprayed at it from ground three days in a row through Saturday. -- Reactor No. 4 (Under maintenance when quake struck) Renewed nuclear chain reaction feared at spent-fuel storage pool, fire at building housing containment of reactor Tuesday and Wednesday, only frame remains of reactor building roof, temperature in the pool reached 84 C on Monday. http://english.kyodo...1/03/79535.html WHAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebman Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 This is an ongoing catastrophe. Poor Japan. Those vids of the tsunami were horrific to say the least. Then the unending reactor problems. I wish there were some way of filling up all the reactor pools. This is a crazy nightmare for the Japanese. Imagine your home gone, family gone, freezing cold, short of food, water and medical supplies with these reactors that it is so hard to shut down and get cooled off. It just breaks my heart into pieces... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 WHAT? It's horrible. Reactors 2, 3, and 4 are in really bad shape. I hope the cooling comes back on, but something tells me it's not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mt.Zoniac Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 That's the most recent update? Doesn't sound like they're anywhere near gaining control of these reactors. Situation is running away from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 this would be great news if true..but maybe he referring to the other plant NEWS ADVISORY: Temperature at 100 C or lower at Fukushima 1-4 reactors: defense chief (15:51) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.