Japan Nuclear Crisis Part II

[jburns]

so dumping water on reactors from the air and using firetrucks are not countermeasures? Firetrucks can't get close becuase of high radiation isn't a signficant release

we seem to have 3 level 5's? actaully more becuase the spent fuel pools could each be considered an event on their own..since they are each a nuclear waste storage area seperate from the core

You have to consider every word. Remember the goal of any company in a crisis is to make it seem less than it is. Certainly using firetrucks and choppers are countermeasures. But that is not what is required as part of a level 6 incident.

Level 6: Serious accident

Impact on People and Environment

Significant release of radioactive material likely to require implementation of planned countermeasures.

TEPCO has said they are improvising. So by definition this is not a planned response and from their viewpoint does not meet level 6. Of course from everyone else's view it makes worse, but that is not the issue addressed in the statement.

[JoMo]

Isn't it going on 1 AM or so over there?

NEWS ADVISORY: Tokyo Fire Dept. begins dousing coolant water over Fukushima reactor

[Clinch Leatherwood]

I think somehow, someway they're potentially getting it under control. It may simply be good luck that's preventing the worst from happening but either way things seem to have stabalized.

The USA and others said they could only prevent a meltdown in the next 24-48 hours two days ago. If those experts were right and they wake up Saturday to find things aren't that bad over there....maybe they managed to do it.

[BxEngine]

I'm not that familiar with Fire Boats, but i do know the monitors flow large volumes of water.

I'm not sure i understand the question, but a fire boat can supply water to land vehicles. I'm pretty sure i have read in large cities like New York, the FDNY has done that many times. BXengine?

Yup...they provided constant water for about a week after 9/11 when the water mains were destroyed. Its certainly possible.....but like I said....the Tokyo Fd is the largest in the world, I'm sure they've thought about these ideas and shot them down for any number of reasons.

[CoastalWx]

I think somehow, someway they're potentially getting it under control. It may simply be good luck that's preventing the worst from happening but either way things seem to have stabalized.

The USA and others said they could only prevent a meltdown in the next 24-48 hours two days ago. If those experts were right and they wake up Saturday to find things aren't that bad over there....maybe they managed to do it.

It will be interesting to find out what measures they took. We know it wasn't just dumping water..I'm sure there were a few behind the scenes heroes here. Hopefully they stabilized it.

[pawatch]

If you have a pier, you could stage the fireboat at the dock. Then lay a line from the fireboat to a landbased unit.

Most fire pumpers have pumps that pump 2000-3000 gpm. Some things to factor in is the distance they would need to go from the pier to where they need to set up their master stream for cooling.

Also not sure the gpm you would need for cooling.

Then you would need teams in hazmat suits to set everything up. Could be time consuming.

<br><br>Edit: On fire boats...NYC latest fire boat can pump 50,000 gpm  I'm thing Japan's fire boats should pump over 10,000gpm<br><br><br>Sorry but I'm posting from my phone.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

It will be interesting to find out what measures they took. We know it wasn't just dumping water..I'm sure there were a few behind the scenes heroes here. Hopefully they stabilized it.

Going to be very interesting to see which side was right. Funny it WAS just like the models maybe..one side was very right, one side very wrong.

The Japanese at least at this moment appear to have been more right. Things were bad, but not horrific. It's a long term problem but maybe they can handle it. Disaster yes, catastrophe no.

I think if we get into Saturday or early Sunday and nothing critical has happened you'd have to think they have at least gotten it stable and can then work on a longer term solution without it cascading into a catastrophe.

[CoastalWx]

Going to be very interesting to see which side was right. Funny it WAS just like the models maybe..one side was very right, one side very wrong.

The Japanese at least at this moment appear to have been more right. Things were bad, but not horrific. It's a long term problem but maybe they can handle it. Disaster yes, catastrophe no.

I think if we get into Saturday or early Sunday and nothing critical has happened you'd have to think they have at least gotten it stable and can then work on a longer term solution without it cascading into a catastrophe.

Well I think it was/is bordering a catastrophe..but it never felt like it crossed over to certain doom. We sort of straddled the line and still are, but hopefully the continued water pumping and extra resources at least stabilized it. I don't really see this as a right or wrong side here, but we still are in the middle of this mess. I hope all this water isn't seeping into the ground.

[Organizing Low]

Awesome documentary of the scientists who went back in months after the disaster to check on the condition of the nuclear fuel. They actually went inside the sarcophagus. Measurements were at one point 500 roentgens!!!!! Its a 5 part documentary with each part about 10 mins long.. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0KeSXMTzt6M

awesome stuff!!

thanks for posting.

[Mr Torchey]

Going to be very interesting to see which side was right. Funny it WAS just like the models maybe..one side was very right, one side very wrong.

The Japanese at least at this moment appear to have been more right. Things were bad, but not horrific. It's a long term problem but maybe they can handle it. Disaster yes, catastrophe no.

I think if we get into Saturday or early Sunday and nothing critical has happened you'd have to think they have at least gotten it stable and can then work on a longer term solution without it cascading into a catastrophe.

[Scott747]

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1GyGNDETf

The boss of the company behind the devastated Japanese nuclear reactor today broke down in tears - as his country finally acknowledged the radiation spewing from the over-heating reactors and fuel rods was enough to kill some citizens

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency admitted that the disaster was a level 5, which is classified as a crisis causing 'several radiation deaths' by the UN International Atomic Energy.

Officials said the rating was raised after they realised the full extent of the radiation leaking from the plant. They also said that 3 per cent of the fuel in three of the reactors at the Fukushima plant had been severely damaged, suggesting those reactor cores have partially melted down.

After Tokyo Electric Power Company Managing Director Akio Komiri cried as he left a conference to brief journalists on the situation at Fukushima, a senior Japanese minister also admitted that the country was overwhelmed by the scale of the tsunami and nuclear crisis.

He said officials should have admitted earlier how serious the radiation leaks were.

*edit*

Link

[Scott747]

Unfortunately most of the wording and info coming out today shows the Japanese coming more in line with the assessment of US officials.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-reactor-damage-20110318,0,7832119.story

If you believe the LA. Times article the biggest issue from our view is still the #4 reactor. Global Hawk imaging shows whatever water is being applied is not lasting very long and that as thought there is a major breach/damage to the fuel pool. Sounds like we still believe that the fuel pool was either completely dry or has little water in it. Still no explanation why the radiation readings are not significantly higher. I'm sure the assumption is that the Japanese are keeping this info from the public. If we do indeed have proof of much higher readings the US should release the info.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

The chernoybl story posted above is a must watch. What that and tmi go to show is that we have no idea what's going on. We won't for months or years. Someone could go look and be dead before they could even report back.

Those videos and more reading on tmi turned me back towards the dire scale. The question I guess is at what point can the spent rods do their thing again. Ie there must be an expected curve where they heat heat heat and then cath fire. There must be an expected timeline on that.

The futility of dumping water on it is kind of clear.

The chernoybl story...ruskies are tough people. Amazing that they got volunteers to run in there with shovels.

[Bodhi Cove]

Well I think it was/is bordering a catastrophe..but it never felt like it crossed over to certain doom. We sort of straddled the line and still are, but hopefully the continued water pumping and extra resources at least stabilized it. I don't really see this as a right or wrong side here, but we still are in the middle of this mess. I hope all this water isn't seeping into the ground.

I agree. The concept of right vs. wrong or disaster vs. catastrophe is completely subjective to the individuals, community, businesses and environmental impacts already experienced, as well as those yet to be determined.

[eyewall]

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1GyGNDETf

The boss of the company behind the devastated Japanese nuclear reactor today broke down in tears - as his country finally acknowledged the radiation spewing from the over-heating reactors and fuel rods was enough to kill some citizens

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency admitted that the disaster was a level 5, which is classified as a crisis causing 'several radiation deaths' by the UN International Atomic Energy.

Officials said the rating was raised after they realised the full extent of the radiation leaking from the plant. They also said that 3 per cent of the fuel in three of the reactors at the Fukushima plant had been severely damaged, suggesting those reactor cores have partially melted down.

After Tokyo Electric Power Company Managing Director Akio Komiri cried as he left a conference to brief journalists on the situation at Fukushima, a senior Japanese minister also admitted that the country was overwhelmed by the scale of the tsunami and nuclear crisis.

He said officials should have admitted earlier how serious the radiation leaks were.

*edit*

Link

I wonder how many died as a result of hiding the truth.

[Bodhi Cove]

The chernoybl story posted above is a must watch. What that and tmi go to show is that we have no idea what's going on. We won't for months or years. Someone could go look and be dead before they could even report back.

Those videos and more reading on tmi turned me back towards the dire scale. The question I guess is at what point can the spent rods do their thing again. Ie there must be an expected curve where they heat heat heat and then cath fire. There must be an expected timeline on that.

The futility of dumping water on it is kind of clear.

The chernoybl story...ruskies are tough people. Amazing that they got volunteers to run in there with shovels.

Somewhere along the line I read that when they shut down reactor 4 (Nov. possibly, don't quote me on that) they sent the rods to the communal storage pool. (Whether that is correct I do not know) But none the less, it was stated that spent rods reside in those pools for up to 5-6 years, until the radiation levels drop enough to place them in dry storage racks.

Dai-Ichi has a DRY rack capacity of 804 rods. But as of the end of 2010, that capacity had been met. Thus, there are actually more rods in the combined spent fuel pool, then originally planned/designed for. One can only assume (yes, assume) that wherever they placed the rods of Unit 4 after they removed them from the reactor, the entire pool would heat up from the residual heat rather quickly. Which would have been fine, if the tsunami hadn't wiped out their back up systems.

[Ian]

I wonder how many died as a result of hiding the truth.

less than you imagine probably

[Bodhi Cove]

I wonder how many died as a result of hiding the truth.

Or how many have yet to die from the effects.

[OHSnow]

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1GyGNDETf

The boss of the company behind the devastated Japanese nuclear reactor today broke down in tears - as his country finally acknowledged the radiation spewing from the over-heating reactors and fuel rods was enough to kill some citizens

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency admitted that the disaster was a level 5, which is classified as a crisis causing 'several radiation deaths' by the UN International Atomic Energy.

Officials said the rating was raised after they realised the full extent of the radiation leaking from the plant. They also said that 3 per cent of the fuel in three of the reactors at the Fukushima plant had been severely damaged, suggesting those reactor cores have partially melted down.

After Tokyo Electric Power Company Managing Director Akio Komiri cried as he left a conference to brief journalists on the situation at Fukushima, a senior Japanese minister also admitted that the country was overwhelmed by the scale of the tsunami and nuclear crisis.

He said officials should have admitted earlier how serious the radiation leaks were.

*edit*

Link

Interesting, the media made it sound like it's cold there. But that photo from Iwaki, Fukushima shows lots of palm trees grow there, so it must be warm.

[OSUmetstud]

Interesting, the media made it sound like it's cold there. But that photo from Iwaki, Fukushima shows lots of palm trees grow there, so it must be warm.

it has been cold...it's been in the 30s etc....it was snowing in Fukushima a few days ago and also during the tsunami.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

I read somewhere yesterday that the rods ignite at around 2k Celsius or thereabout. If temps are only at 85c it would seem there's a way to go.

How quickly they can spam that gap is the real question.

[OSUmetstud]

I read somewhere yesterday that the rods ignite at around 2k Celsius or thereabout. If temps are only at 85c it would seem there's a way to go.

How quickly they can spam that gap is the real question.

where did you see that? They haven't had a temperature reading at the spent fuel pools for a few days.

[Bodhi Cove]

I read somewhere yesterday that the rods ignite at around 2k Celsius or thereabout. If temps are only at 85c it would seem there's a way to go.

How quickly they can spam that gap is the real question.

That 85c reading of the combined pool in unit 4, was the last reading they were able to get; and that was on Monday March 14th...... Now the radiation is too high to get close, so they keep throwing water at it, and we keep seeing steam..

[Dunkman]

Reuters

We've received a report that TEPCO has managed to connect an external transmission line to the stricken Daiichi plant. Stay tuned for updates

[johnc]

They're f'd.

I feel bad for them.

[pawatch]

1:39 p.m. ET Friday, 2:39 a.m. Saturday in Tokyo] Monitors in Sacramento, California, have detected a small amount of radioactive material from the earthquake-struck nuclear power plant in Japan, an official with the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization said. The exact amounts were not available, but were far less than what would be considered harmful to human health, the official said.

http://news.blogs.cn...diation/?hpt=T2

[Clinch Leatherwood]

where did you see that? They haven't had a temperature reading at the spent fuel pools for a few days.

below

That 85c reading of the combined pool in unit 4, was the last reading they were able to get; and that was on Monday March 14th...... Now the radiation is too high to get close, so they keep throwing water at it, and we keep seeing steam..

I think that's the last information we have. I thought in one of the documents they'd indicated that was fairly new.

It's about 1k degrees C when they'd ignite per this article.

http://www.engineerlive.com/Power-Engineer/Nuclear_Power/Fukushima_disaster%3A_filling_spent_fuel_ponds/23355/

[Dunkman]

1:39 p.m. ET Friday, 2:39 a.m. Saturday in Tokyo] Monitors in Sacramento, California, have detected a small amount of radioactive material from the earthquake-struck nuclear power plant in Japan, an official with the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization said. The exact amounts were not available, but were far less than what would be considered harmful to human health, the official said.

http://news.blogs.cn...diation/?hpt=T2

Yeah the number I saw was 1 one-billionth of the amount that would be considered a health risk.

[samdman95]

Yeah the number I saw was 1 one-billionth of the amount that would be considered a health risk.

Sadly, I bet there are some people freaking out there.

[jasonli18t]

Sadly, I bet there are some people freaking out there.

To be fair, we are still a few days away from the worst radiation reaching our shores. This is still only associated with the damage suffered on days 1 and 2. I still don't fear much, but this isn't a fair measurement yet.