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Japan Nuclear Crisis Part II


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So apparently everyone has been worried for nothing....

  • BREAKING NEWS: Nuclear problems to be resolved soon: Kan (20:28)

Oh man. I was worried for nothing, then. 3 incidents that are equal to if not greater than three mile island and one less so all in a week's time and all of these problems will be resolved soon. Sorry, but I think all of this happy reporting from the government is in response to their precious NEKKEI falling 20%. I think the truth is relative and is inferior to their stock markets.

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so dumping water on reactors from the air and using firetrucks are not countermeasures? Firetrucks can't get close becuase of high radiation isn't a signficant release

we seem to have 3 level 5s? actaully more becuase the spent fuel pools could each be considered an event on their own

The main difference between the two levels is:

6

"Significant release of radioactive material likely to require implementation of planned countermeasures."

5

"Limited release of radioactive ­material likely to require i­mplementation of some planned­ countermeasures."

Both require countermeasures. Each of the first 4 reactors would be at level 5 themselves but I don't think they've reached 6 yet, even combined. There's no exact amount defined for each level though, so it can be debated.

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what kind of flow rates are we talking about with standard fire pumps?

In the US, the standard is anywhere between 1000 and 2000 gpm for most rigs....but with good water source, the proper equipment/setup...a 2000 gpm pumper could go about 2500 or so for a decent amount of time (might render the pump unusable for a while, but Im sure thats not a concern). Most rigs are in the 1500-2000 gpm areas in the northeast.

Im not too sure about Japan, but in Europe the rigs are much different....for 2 main reasons. 1 being the type of building/roads, etc....and 2 being the style of firefighting.

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another question I have is that TEPCO says the radition level fell very slightly after the water cannon shots..but how do they know this wasn't the result of somethign else..the radiation level seems to be chaging all the time even before they tried the water drops/shots. becuase remember a few nights ago they had to shelter in place becuase radiation levels were too high..but 45 minutes later they fell and they started work again. (what caused the drop then, nothing the workers did)

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what kind of flow rates are we talking about with standard fire pumps?

been a while since I helped raise money for one.....but I recall variable rates up to 3000 however there is equipment that can do more....

I think it depends upon water supply and pressured sources....

there are a few firefighters on the board I am sure they will get into it more...

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In the US, the standard is anywhere between 1000 and 2000 gpm for most rigs....but with good water source, the proper equipment/setup...a 2000 gpm pumper could go about 2500 or so for a decent amount of time (might render the pump unusable for a while, but Im sure thats not a concern). Most rigs are in the 1500-2000 gpm areas in the northeast.

Im not too sure about Japan, but in Europe the rigs are much different....for 2 main reasons. 1 being the type of building/roads, etc....and 2 being the style of firefighting.

and there you have it....

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In the US, the standard is anywhere between 1000 and 2000 gpm for most rigs....but with good water source, the proper equipment/setup...a 2000 gpm pumper could go about 2500 or so for a decent amount of time (might render the pump unusable for a while, but Im sure thats not a concern). Most rigs are in the 1500-2000 gpm areas in the northeast.

Im not too sure about Japan, but in Europe the rigs are much different....for 2 main reasons. 1 being the type of building/roads, etc....and 2 being the style of firefighting.

Fireboats on the other hand, can produce upwards of 30,000 gpm, and Tokyo, as well as a few other depts in Japan, have a decent fireboat fleet. But again, being the largest FD in the world, Im sure theyve already thought of this a hundred times over and its been ruled out for one reason or another.

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Fireboats on the other hand, can produce upwards of 30,000 gpm, and Tokyo, as well as a few other depts in Japan, have a decent fireboat fleet. But again, being the largest FD in the world, Im sure theyve already thought of this a hundred times over and its been ruled out for one reason or another.

wow

through how many output points to reach 30k? that is amazing.....

could they not use something like that to provide pressurized water supply?

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One thing I have not heard much talk of is assuming no significant increases in radiation and they gradually get this under control via cooling of the reactors and maintaining water in the waster pools, is how long will the exclusion zones remain. Obviously we are likely talking many days at a minimum. The exclusion area is not only hindering aid delivery to the north further straining resources due to additional evacs, but is delaying tsunami recovery operations in the vicinity of the plant (i.e. recovery of dead/debris removal in this area along the coast cannot proceed until the all clear is given to this area.

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wow

through how many output points to reach 30k? that is amazing.....

could they not use something like that to provide pressurized water supply?

Im not really sure......but its not that many outlets, I know that. But Im not really sure about the pumps, whether they are two stage (or maybe even 3 stage) pumps, how much they can deliver in pressure mode vs volume, etc.

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NISA updates:

Seismic Damage Information (the 29th Release) (As of 06:30 March 18th, 2011)

http://www.nisa.meti...n20110318-2.pdf

Seismic Damage Information (the 30th Release) (As of 15:00 March 18th, 2011)

http://www.nisa.meti...n20110318-3.pdf

despite cooling pumps working on 5 and 6 the temp is creeping up still

why the lack of info on 4?

no change of fuel pool level(core not spent) on 3 between 0435 and 1234 on the 18th...

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If this has been possible (i.e operations are able to be carried out despite high radiation levels) why wasnt this in the offing days ago? It is hard to imagine this plant ever being functional again.

Maybe they were holding out hope that it would one day be functional.

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I guess it is viewed as a last resort. Obviously units 1-3 will never operate again since seawater was pumped in the reactors. I am guessing they would prefer to get the pumps working again slowly allow the rods to cool in 1-3 then remove them after a significant period of time (i.e. years). 4-6 I believe could still technically operate again. Core/containment vesssel is completely intact on 4 and was in shutdown at the time of the quake and no seawater was used here. Just a matter of keeping the storage pool covered with water then covering it so no radiation release occurs while they rebuild the rest of the structure. Since the units were so close to the end of their lifespan unit 4 will probably not operate again as a practical matter. 5-6 will operate again.

Of course this may depend on full inspection of the reactor vessels if any are damaged resulting in radiation leakage they have have no real choice but to entomb it.

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If this has been possible (i.e operations are able to be carried out despite high radiation levels) why wasnt this in the offing days ago? It is hard to imagine this plant ever being functional again.

Once you do this you end up with a long-term radioactive pile covered with a dome that requires endless maintenance. They probably wanted to clean it up and dismantle it instead.

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Maybe they were holding out hope that it would one day be functional.

This plant was going into retirement next week, even without the tsunami and earthquake.

This has more to do with limited space in Japan and the fact that burying them is a lot worse than cooling them down. For one, you are talking about meltdowns as opposed to cooling down.

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Maybe they were holding out hope that it would one day be functional.

I made a comment about that early on...

TEPCO likely made decisions EARLY on when time was critical, with the idea these reactors would be salvaged for future use. Now this also would be prior to the series of explosions which then created a domino effect.

Months/years from now the story will come out.....

if this plant was "offline" on 6 reactors....3 active....no power.....no generators.....limited battery power.....reactors/pools all exposed to being left in an idle condition.....no chance of restoring power in the short term .....you mean there is no page in the book to refer to when these conditions are present? Post quake/tsunami?

It will be interesting to see the designs for the backup systems which were destroyed by the tsunami. I find it almost impossible to believe that these systems were not harden/elevated and redundant.

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wow

through how many output points to reach 30k? that is amazing.....

could they not use something like that to provide pressurized water supply?

I'm not that familiar with Fire Boats, but i do know the monitors flow large volumes of water.

I'm not sure i understand the question, but a fire boat can supply water to land vehicles. I'm pretty sure i have read in large cities like New York, the FDNY has done that many times. BXengine?

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I made a comment about that early on...

TEPCO likely made decisions EARLY on when time was critical, with the idea these reactors would be salvaged for future use. Now this also would be prior to the series of explosions which then created a domino effect.

Months/years from now the story will come out.....

if this plant was "offline" on 6 reactors....3 active....no power.....no generators.....limited battery power.....reactors/pools all exposed to being left in an idle condition.....no chance of restoring power in the short term .....you mean there is no page in the book to refer to when these conditions are present? Post quake/tsunami?

It will be interesting to see the designs for the backup systems which were destroyed by the tsunami. I find it almost impossible to believe that these systems were not harden/elevated and redundant.

I'm in the same place....it's hard to believe. I do know that the fuel tanks for the generators were swept away by the tsunami.

It's also hard to believe that a 'plan' is not in place for such an event. An obvious backup to the backup would be water towers or tanks whereby you can either pump water or use gravity to move water as needed.

Another obvious plan would be either large water boats or barges with generators, fuel tanks, and pumps. I don't get it at all....

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Japanese Earthquake Update (18 March 12:25 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that, prior to the earthquake of 12 March, the entire fuel core of reactor unit 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant had been unloaded from the reactor and placed in the spent fuel pond located in the reactor's building.

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http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110316005275.htm

FUKUSHIMA--Strong horizontal jolts dislodged ceiling pipes and massive amounts of water started flooding out--this was the frightening scene experienced by a worker who was in the building housing the No. 1 reactor of the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant when the earthquake hit Friday.

His tale told to The Yomiuri Shimbun sheds light on the heavy initial damage the quake caused inside the building.

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http://www.yomiuri.c...10316005275.htm

FUKUSHIMA--Strong horizontal jolts dislodged ceiling pipes and massive amounts of water started flooding out--this was the frightening scene experienced by a worker who was in the building housing the No. 1 reactor of the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant when the earthquake hit Friday.

His tale told to The Yomiuri Shimbun sheds light on the heavy initial damage the quake caused inside the building.

And if the integrity of the pipes has been damaged, what is the new power line going to do about it?

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I'm not that familiar with Fire Boats, but i do know the monitors flow large volumes of water.

I'm not sure i understand the question, but a fire boat can supply water to land vehicles. I'm pretty sure i have read in large cities like New York, the FDNY has done that many times. BXengine?

If you have a pier, you could stage the fireboat at the dock. Then lay a line from the fireboat to a landbased unit.

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And if the integrity of the pipes has been damaged, what is the new power line going to do about it?

I'm an electrician and a volunteer firefighter, so this whole scenario is very facinating to me. I think it's safe to say, it will not do much in the buildings that have experienced the explosions. I think the hopes are that power would run cooling systems that haven't been damaged (if there are any). Also, remember that these people are probably working with flashlights. If piping and/or electrical conduits are damaged to the point where they are useless, then I'm not sure what will happen if nobody can get close enough to the problem to fix it. At least getting a power source re-established will allow them to try some of these systems to see what actually does still work, and hopefully some of them do.

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