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Japan Nuclear Crisis Part II


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I am pretty sure the Japanese are aware of what needs to be done in a theoretical sense and are trying to execute. It is easy to think you have the answer thousands of miles away in suburban NJ, with all due respect.

I think you missed the part where he was replying to me and not trying to establish direct dialogue with the Japanese emperor.

I get the impression aside of during a press conference we are getting old information. It was apparent twelve hours ago #3 was steaming and that's breaking news now.

Great news on the chlorides osu...if anything this accident will hopefully cause the NRC to take a close look at these reactors in the USA.

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I think you missed the part where he was replying to me and not trying to establish direct dialogue with the Japanese emperor.

I get the impression aside of during a press conference we are getting old information. It was apparent twelve hours ago #3 was steaming and that's breaking news now.

Great news on the chlorides osu...if anything this accident will hopefully cause the NRC to take a close look at these reactors in the USA.

It is sort of insulting in my opinion for us to assume we have all the answers and the Japanese are not doing everything humanly possible to avert catastrophe.

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I get the impression aside of during a press conference we are getting old information. It was apparent twelve hours ago #3 was steaming and that's breaking news now.

here is the impression i am getting..maybe it's japanese culture....

in the west when he have 50% of the facts..we fill in the blanks with process of elimination or eduacated guesses and report it..in Japan they seem to hold off on any news until they have 100% of the facts or 100% confirmed....they may be more precise but slower with their reporting

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I am pretty sure the Japanese are aware of what needs to be done in a theoretical sense and are trying to execute. It is easy to think you have the answer thousands of miles away in suburban NJ, with all due respect.

Hey these are his views......and he is someone who knows more about Mark 1's with about 40 years association and experience.

I do not have the answers Phin....just happen to have the dialogue with someone I finally was able to track down.

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Nuclear Crisis: Rising Radiation Levels Halt Work at Fukushima Plant

Experts Say Nuclear Emergency Nearing 'Point of no Return'

BY DAVID MUIR, JESSICA HOPPER, LEEZEL TANGLAO AND BEN FORER

March 16, 2011

http://abcnews.go.com/International/japan-nuclear-crisis-rising-radiation-levels-halt-fukushima/story?id=13146516

Surging radiation levels temporarily halted work to cool the troubled reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, raising worries that officials are running out of options to stabilize the escalating catastrophe.

"We're very close now to the point of no return," Dr. Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist, said. "It's gotten worse. We're talking about workers coming into the reactor perhaps as a suicide mission and we may have to abandon ship."

Dr. Michio Kaku is a modern day Einstein. He's done a great deal of research on nuclear physics and has written several books on physics and nuclear physics. He could go toe to toe with Stephen Hawking quite easily. He also has very far left wing opinions... both must be taken into consideration while determining this man's opinion regarding the current problem at the reactor.

I've tried reading his books on a couple of occassions... couldn't make heads or tails out of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku

What is the most alarming to me is that first we were dealing with problems from reactor #1, then #3, then #2, then #4 and now we have temperatures rising in #5 and #6, which were precursors to problems in #1 and #3. Follow your thoughts to the conclusion of this whole scenario.. how long can they keep pumping seawater into these plants for? The seawater is having corrosive effects on the metal alloys of the actual containment units themselves... yeah, they can survive a 747 but how about a week's worth of corrosive seawater? Or two weeks?

I found this paper done on the corrosive effects of seawater on alloys. It's an interesting read...

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:WLjkDn5S1ywJ:www.swcc.gov.sa/files/assets/Research/Technical%2520Papers/Corrosion/EFFECT%2520OF%2520SEAWATER%2520LEVEL%2520ON%2520CORROSION%2520BEHAVIOR%2520OF%2520DIFFERENT%2520.pdf+sea+water+effects+on+alloy&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShtEBXDzQmF-G6Nre3aY3y2UywVagd5mIZEXdzDtw62oJMmcpEYencgZ53HxCYhELZ-Mb3bfzGKpnSPJIO0WKoHZ2UWkNN_vle-_btQOcfjkQSTjCAiCOgRf-Fnr-IplYN6E0FQ&sig=AHIEtbRbTkvm8I_ZFnyye-zWDO_McgfKOA&pli=1

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They're measuring over 3000msv near the perimeter and the helicopter that was too dump water had to turn back because radiation levels were so high.

Today to me is the critical day. It will either get much worse or will stabilize. At some point the slow motion wreck either gets reigned in or starts to snowball.

This is the kind of bad info that gets people all riled up.

3000msv near the perimeter? So people near the plant will die with an hour's dose?

No. I'm assuming you mean 3000μsv, which would make you off by a factor of 1,000.

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It is sort of insulting in my opinion for us to assume we have all the answers and the Japanese are not doing everything humanly possible to avert catastrophe.

This.

If you think there's an "easier" solution and the Japanese are just too ______ (what, exactly?) to implement it, you should probably stop believing everything you hear.

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Dr. Michio Kaku is a modern day Einstein. He's done a great deal of research on nuclear physics and has written several books on physics and nuclear physics. He could go toe to toe with Stephen Hawking quite easily. He also has very far left wing opinions... both must be taken into consideration while determining this man's opinion regarding the current problem at the reactor.

I've tried reading his books on a couple of occassions... couldn't make heads or tails out of them.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Michio_Kaku

Dr. Kaku was/is a rather frequent guest on Art Bell's and now George Norre's nighttime Coast to Coast AM shows.

Heard some rather bizarre stuff come out of him. A grain of salt here IMO...

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Dr. Kaku was/is a rather frequent guest on Art Bell's and now George Norre's nighttime Coast to Coast AM shows.

Heard some rather bizarre stuff come out of him. A grain of salt here IMO...

Ya.

He's brilliant, no doubt, and I like the guy, but he seems to have a habit of hyping things up in general.

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CNN's Chad Myers is a super-stud: meteorologist par excellence, seismologist, nuclear physicist, terrorism expert, engineer, technology wizard...what can this man NOT do?

Predict anything accurately would be my guess. I know that's harsh but he was on CNN hours after the quake saying that Japan had dodged a bullet and that only 1000 or so were killed. It was right then where I stopped watching CNN for news on this topic.

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The NRC recently notified licensees that chlorides – usually from the air at nuclear plants near the ocean, worker sweat or adhesives – have caused cracking on stainless steel piping in pressurized-water reactors.

http://nuclearstreet...pwrs022801.aspx

The reactors at the plant are BWRs...but I thought it was relevant given they are directly pumping sea water into a hot reactor.

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-SCC/scc.htm

Chloride stress corrosion was a known fact to us enlisted (ie, before I went to college) nuclear operators back in the Reagan era. In the pressurized water reactors, secondary plant water was non-radioactive, and we kept it very clean, with mechanical means to keep it oxygen free and chemicals to scavenge oxygen and maintain perfect pH. And the secondary plant had numerous electric cells to measure chlorides, with alarms if they detected measurable levels, and chlorides in the secondary was a big deal, with operators testing different sources of feed water with silver nitrate turbidity testers, so to isolate any leaking condenser. For this reason, to prevent chloride stress corrosion. The steam generator u-tubes were especially susceptible, and a leak there could cause radiactive contamination of the secondary steam plant.

I am sure the operators in Japan are well aware of the corrosive and deleterious effects of sea water, but there backs seem up against the wall. These plants will never generate electricity again.

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from left to right 4 3 2 1

I wonder what we see in 4 that is not visible in 3.....

Thanks for the pictures.....better resolution.....going to pass them along...

that may just be inside material on the upper part that didn;t get blown off(you can see steel beams in front of it) but maybe not

more pics, number 3 in the foregorund, then 4..so this will be the opposite side

article-1366670-0B32096D00000578-100_964x703.jpg

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http://www.corrosion...rms-SCC/scc.htm

Chloride stress corrosion was a known fact to us enlisted (ie, before I went to college) nuclear operators back in the Reagan era. In the pressurized water reactors, secondary plant water was non-radioactive, and we kept it very clean, with mechanical means to keep it oxygen free and chemicals to scavenge oxygen and maintain perfect pH. And the secondary plant had numerous electric cells to measure chlorides, with alarms if they detected measurable levels, and chlorides in the secondary was a big deal, with operators testing different sources of feed water with silver nitrate turbidity testers, so to isolate any leaking condenser. For this reason, to prevent chloride stress corrosion. The steam generator u-tubes were especially susceptible, and a leak there could cause radiactive contamination of the secondary steam plant.

I am sure the operators in Japan are well aware of the corrosive and deleterious effects of sea water, but there backs seem up against the wall. These plants will never generate electricity again.

I am thinking that the explosions themselves (and hence, unseen potential damage to critical systems) rendered these 40yr. old plants onto the fast track of decommissioning.

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Not to derail the thread any more than it has been from time to time but are the Mark II's any "better" than the Mark I that some of the older plants and this plant in Japan feature?

I don't know the nomenclature of civilian reactors, but I have heard the newest generation Westinghouse reactors, designed but not yet built, are designed with passive cooling, or natural circulation. Temperature induced density changes will cause flow through the reactor even without electricity, so this type of accident, a loss of flow accident, would not be possible.

US Navy S8G, and IIRC, S6G reactors. have utilized this technology for over thirty years, because reactor coolant pumps are a source of noise, and natural circulation reactors are quieter. Important in submarine warfare.

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This is the kind of bad info that gets people all riled up.

3000msv near the perimeter? So people near the plant will die with an hour's dose?

No. I'm assuming you mean 3000μsv, which would make you off by a factor of 1,000.

Ahhh, the ole's decimal point error!!!! 10 to the negative 6 as opposed to 10 to the negative 9 sorry about that!!!!:whistle:

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CNN's Chad Myers is a super-stud: meteorologist par excellence, seismologist, nuclear physicist, terrorism expert, engineer, technology wizard...what can this man NOT do?

Apparently he does not have the ability to say "No, I am not an expert on that particular matter and cannot speak to that issue"...

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