OHSnow Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 thx for info. i was trying to communicate a comparison of the impacts of the coal emissions he noted to this once incident as he did...in other words, it's pretty evident that coal has caused a tremendously larger impact to the environment and humanity than nuclear ever has...much less this one nuclear emergency he used as a prop. He also conveniently left out all of the other deaths attributable to coal. I don't know how many coal miners have died from mining accidents in total, but the number surely would be staggering. About 5,000 coal miners die each year in China alone. I don't even think those figures are counting deaths from diseases like black lung disease. Sorry that doesn't make for such a sexy media story. http://frankwarner.t...al_mining_.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 which reactor is it out of though? Weren't they spraying on reactor 4? Which I interpreted as the most stable one to begin with? I'm not sure. There was some kind of thing a couple pages back that an agency released related to the stabilty of each reactor with red being worse and green being okay. It listed that four's containment wasn't compromised but three's was. Weird seeing as 4 also lists heavy building damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 im just not sure you're on to much. water + hot substance creates steam. steam does not necessarily mean things are going the right direction. It was suggested yesterday that some reactor pools where near dry.. At least if there is water we know they are not completely empty.. yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 so that would likely mean the spent fuel rods are indeed exposed Well, four houses the spent fuel rods. They can heat up without a coolant system, so yes it would lead us to believe some of them might be somewhat exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hasn't there been steam coming out of these buildings since Monday? Not sure what has changed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well, four houses the spent fuel rods. They can heat up without a coolant system, so yes it would lead us to believe some of them might be somewhat exposed. spent fuel rods are in all reactors...they sprayed # 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well, likely this steam is caused by air temp or normal water touching the hotter objects or rods... yes, but it could be any hot object. Naturally if you have 500 C + rods, they are going to heat metal, etc..... up, so the water may just be producing steam when it comes in contact with that and not the actual pool. The earlier news report made it sound like they were sure water made it to the pool somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 BINGO That other statement was pathetic considering the situation. Cool...You think my comment is pathetic. Now back to reality. The Japanese, along with every other country that has nuclear power and is part of the U.N. takes part in protocols developed by the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation. It's Article 15 in the United States. These safety protocols are in place to protect workers whether or not you in particular feel someone else should risk their life to save a situation. Japan isn't going to send anyone to their death considering it's history with radiation unless people step forward to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 spent fuel rods are in all reactors...they sprayed # 3 I forget what was special about 4 regarding the fuel rods.. I know it was out of service. I just looked at the chart back on like page 27 and interestingly enough it says that reactor 4 does not require any action regarding cooling or pumping water (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I forget what was special about 4 regarding the fuel rods.. I know it was out of service. I just looked at the chart back on like page 27 and interestingly enough it says that reactor 4 does not require any action regarding cooling or pumping water (?) no water is needed for the core in 4....it was shut down...but they have problems with the spent fuel rods.....two different possible problems at each reactor..core(and cooling rods) and also spent fuel rods stored in a pool (nuclear waste) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 im just not sure you're on to much. water + hot substance creates steam. steam does not necessarily mean things are going the right direction. Think about the variables involved in considering the temp of the water droplets at point of impact after they accelerated from the release point descending into an area which has a increasing heat signature temp as it approaches impact upon the maximum core heat source....lets be kind....of 100C over an area of something like 20x20x40 that would represent the core mass. Like I said yesterday.....I hope some part of this works......but they went from trying to spit from 5ft to fill a dixie cup to using a straw and shooting from 20ft. Of course that does not account for HEAT..... Perhaps that is why the NRC has decided to go rogue? They certainly GET IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick G Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Water hitting a fuel rod and that rod generates steam... very very bad. Why? because the rod is not covered. The rod could be breaking down and the steam is carrying the particles away. Seeing steam means that something is very hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 What I was thinking about this morning..... lowering a 6" hose into the pool from a copter and doing so from a higher altitude to help with radiation.... It would not take much to rig a fiber optic camera rig.....into the copter so they can see They could also grapple the hose and relocate from pool to pool....if they are accessible..... Then run pumps from fire trucks or whatever source and fill the dam things!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Water hitting a fuel rod and that rod generates steam... very very bad. Why? because the rod is not covered. The rod could be breaking down and the steam is carrying the particles away. Seeing steam means that something is very hot. correct and if the pools are boiling off the water that means 100c+ temps.....once exposed the temps obviously would increase on the rods..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 What I was thinking about this morning..... lowering a 6" hose into the pool from a copter and doing so from a higher altitude to help with radiation.... It would not take much to rig a fiber optic camera rig.....into the copter so they can see They could also grapple the hose and relocate from pool to pool....if they are accessible..... Then run pumps from fire trucks or whatever source and fill the dam things!! I have been saying this for a couple days regarding firehose etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 What I was thinking about this morning..... lowering a 6" hose into the pool from a copter and doing so from a higher altitude to help with radiation.... It would not take much to rig a fiber optic camera rig.....into the copter so they can see They could also grapple the hose and relocate from pool to pool....if they are accessible..... Then run pumps from fire trucks or whatever source and fill the dam things!! I think the issue there is the pressure of the water could cause the hose to whip around and possibly get stuck in the wreckage, bringing down the chopper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyB Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I forget what was special about 4 regarding the fuel rods.. I know it was out of service. I just looked at the chart back on like page 27 and interestingly enough it says that reactor 4 does not require any action regarding cooling or pumping water (?) Reactor 4 was shut down just prior to the quake for maintenance.. the spent fuel rods in #4's cooling pool are "fresh." I'm not entirely certain, but I think there is a leak in that cooling pool.. steam coming from that building doesn't necessarily mean that the cooling system is functioning.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Water hitting a fuel rod and that rod generates steam... very very bad. Why? because the rod is not covered. The rod could be breaking down and the steam is carrying the particles away. Seeing steam means that something is very hot. Yeah, we don't really need to spritz the rods, they need to be submerged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyB Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think the issue there is the pressure of the water could cause the hose to whip around and possibly get stuck in the wreckage, bringing down the chopper. and then not having enough water to effectively fill the cooling pools.. the tanks normally contain 538. 597 gallons of water.. they need at least 1/3 of that to submerge the rods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 much better and slower flyover video;; what do they pause over? http://www.youtube.c...d&v=lBXqiw6EJUk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well another issue would be the length of hose needed. You would need at least 4 times the length from the building to the heli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well another issue would be the length of hose needed. You would need at least 4 times the length from the building to the heli. Just connect the hose.. I think the bigger problem is maintaining pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 If there were better protective suits this would be a lot easier to deal with. They really, really need to get back into what's left of the buildings and start putting things back together. Maybe in the future a better protective suit could be invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think the issue there is the pressure of the water could cause the hose to whip around and possibly get stuck in the wreckage, bringing down the chopper. not if the grapple remains connected......like the ones used for logging and other hvy lifts.... they have a release on them....to protect the copters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasC Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 If there were better protective suits this would be a lot easier to deal with. They really, really need to get back into what's left of the buildings and start putting things back together. Maybe in the future a better protective suit could be invented. Not much out there that can stop gamma rays and still be wearable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 much better and slower flyover video;; what do they pause over? http://www.youtube.c...d&v=lBXqiw6EJUk I see steam coming out of 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Not much out there that can stop gamma rays and still be wearable. Yeah -- I don't know much about radiation except that it's bad. I guess it's pretty clear that if it were possible, it would have already been developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozart Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Maybe in the future a better protective suit could be invented. Yeah, for the next nuclear catastrophe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BxEngine Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Just connect the hose.. I think the bigger problem is maintaining pressure Connect the hose to what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well another issue would be the length of hose needed. You would need at least 4 times the length from the building to the heli. it needs an engineer.....regarding house diameter....pressure etc... the fiber optics are note that difficult since such spools and rigs are used for sewer maintenance ....pipes etc.... Remember the hose would be on a grapple.....hanging 500ft+ from a hvy lift copter.....the higher the better.... so it would be assembled hopefully up wind.....grappled and then extended to the pool area.... perhaps some steel weight attached to the hose collar.....to allow the release of the grapple and get the pilots out of there.... anyway.....given the answer thus far has been to dump water spray from 300+ ft........ this concept would apply direct water....it needs to be ironed out..... When I worked on drilling wells.....it was not uncommon to have long runs to the mud pools.....so I am not that concerned about the length of the run..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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