daddylonglegs Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I read through this page... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I think if I understood correctly, there was a third backup system designed to convert steam into water coolant should the generator fail. Some guy interviewed on NHK said that this system seems to have failed to keep sufficient coolant level, and implied that that failure could be due to a leak somewhere in the coolant system. I guess if there is such a leak it could have been caused by earthquake damage. I could have misunderstood the explanation, but they've been replaying this bit on NHK for the past few hours so anybody interested could probably watch the segment when it's replayed again at mms://nhk-world.gekimedia.net/nhkw-highm ; they're on like a 15-minute recurring loop since it's overnight there. It's too early of course to know for sure what happened and what's going on now, so I guess in some ways it's all speculation. Ahhh, duh... here that segment is: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/14/dnt.japan.reactor.explainer.nhk?hpt=C2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 But can anyone define "occasional," and what that will mean, long-term, for the Japanese nation? Who is going to want to book a flight to Japan, for business or pleasure, with that kind of threat continuing, and accumulating? I wouldn't even want to be living on the Korean peninsula if the spew (even if "occasional") continues for months. Winds will not be westerly every day. Japan is a really nice place (though I haven't seen it personally). I would be willing to risk a little radiation to see it, assuming it wasn't in its current disaster-wrecked state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 it is easy to play arm chair quarterback now. But my concern is that the Japanese gov't is in over it's head. We are discussing how little radiation people are getting but any radiation is dangerous. if the people got a small ice of plutonium in their lungs, they would develop lung cancer, not might but will. this could easliy pass cherlnybol. Unless there is an explosion of the reactor cores themselves, this will NOT surpass Chernobyl. After having read up on Chernobyl, I'm pretty confident about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clinch Leatherwood Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Unless there is an explosion of the reactor cores themselves, this will NOT surpass Chernobyl. After having read up on Chernobyl, I'm pretty confident about that. Given the tendency of the Japanese to withhold vital information during these situations I think declarative statements are unwise. Having some knowledge of pilgrim and understanding they are identical reactors as those malfunctioning.....the current actions are of desperation and are not guaranteed to succeed. Apparently they are unable to ascertain the status of the cores. Until they get to that point we won't know whether they are delaying an inevitable breach or have pulled a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuddz Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Given the tendency of the Japanese to withhold vital information during these situations I think declarative statements are unwise. Having some knowledge of pilgrim and understanding they are identical reactors as those malfunctioning.....the current actions are of desperation and are not guaranteed to succeed. Apparently they are unable to ascertain the status of the cores. Until they get to that point we won't know whether they are delaying an inevitable breach or have pulled a miracle. link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Given the tendency of the Japanese to withhold vital information during these situations I think declarative statements are unwise. Having some knowledge of pilgrim and understanding they are identical reactors as those malfunctioning.....the current actions are of desperation and are not guaranteed to succeed. Apparently they are unable to ascertain the status of the cores. Until they get to that point we won't know whether they are delaying an inevitable breach or have pulled a miracle. From what I saw on RT earlier (Russia Today - a very good you tube outlet) in an interview with a Scottish physicist, the fuel rods have partially melted and may be sitting in the bottom of the containment vessel. That is about as bad as it can get, as the fuel is continuing to heat, and with the lack of coolant, it looks pretty bad from what I see/hear. But the "fog of war" effect is certainly looming large here as well, and speculation abounds. It would appear that the USS Reagan may have been contaminated as well - per the Scottish physicist in the interview mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppsRunner Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 yes i know...i did the calculation myself...less than 30 mrem...hence light radiation...not heavy. A year's worth of radiation is 360 mrem....a chest x-ray is 244 mrem. I'm fairly sure I've had more radiation from X-rays in the last year or so then they've been getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Given the tendency of the Japanese to withhold vital information during these situations I think declarative statements are unwise. Having some knowledge of pilgrim and understanding they are identical reactors as those malfunctioning.....the current actions are of desperation and are not guaranteed to succeed. Apparently they are unable to ascertain the status of the cores. Until they get to that point we won't know whether they are delaying an inevitable breach or have pulled a miracle. Note, I didn't say breach. I said explode. The cores have to EXPLODE to surpass Chernobyl. Otherwise it simply won't match the massive radioactivity spread which occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Given the tendency of the Japanese to withhold vital information during these situations As Scuddz requested, I also would like to see proof that the Japanese are prone to withholding information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Given the tendency of the Japanese to withhold vital information during these situations I think declarative statements are unwise. Having some knowledge of pilgrim and understanding they are identical reactors as those malfunctioning.....the current actions are of desperation and are not guaranteed to succeed. Apparently they are unable to ascertain the status of the cores. Until they get to that point we won't know whether they are delaying an inevitable breach or have pulled a miracle. From what I saw on RT earlier (Russia Today - a very good you tube outlet) in an interview with a Scottish physicist, the fuel rods have partially melted and may be sitting in the bottom of the containment vessel. That is about as bad as it can get, as the fuel is continuing to heat, and with the lack of coolant, it looks pretty bad from what I see/hear. But the "fog of war" effect is certainly looming large here as well, and speculation abounds. It would appear that the USS Reagan may have been contaminated as well - per the Scottish physicist in the interview mentioned above. And the unsubstantiated speculation train keeps on a-chuggin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 And the unsubstantiated speculation train keeps on a-chuggin'. Yes, whence my "fog of war" comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plokoon111 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Lets say the rods melt until there is nothing left, would that cause an explosion to the main concrete shelter in which the reactor sits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 And the unsubstantiated speculation train keeps on a-chuggin'. I would not say I agree with this report, but this stuff is out there. And of course, if you read it on the internet ... it has to be true http://rt.com/usa/news/nuclear-radiation-japan-usa/ That being said, this "Russia Today" outlet is relatively reputable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Disaster Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Here is a question, since we know for sure that two containment buildings have already exploded from uncontrolled hydrogen buildup, wouldnt that in itself provide some evidence to support that there is damage to the reactor? I am sure they arent intentionally releasing hydrogen into the containment buildings so how is it getting there and building into a concentration strong enough to blow the containment building apart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Lets say the rods melt until there is nothing left, would that cause an explosion to the main concrete shelter in which the reactor sits? It is my understanding that they will not melt, but fuse into one mass, that will eat through the floor of the vessel. Once it gets outside the vessel, I think it is anyone's guess what will happen to the fuel rods. I would imagine that if they hit ground water, they would cause an explosion as the water becomes super heated and vaporizes. If not, then I would think that it would slowly cool and spread out, eventually getting into the water table and eventually the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Here is a question, since we know for sure that two containment buildings have already exploded from uncontrolled hydrogen buildup, wouldnt that in itself provide some evidence to support that there is damage to the reactor? I am sure they arent intentionally releasing hydrogen into the containment buildings so how is it getting there and building into a concentration strong enough to blow the containment building apart? I think that I heard during an interview that this is a by product of the use of sea water, possibly corroding the fuel rods. Not sure on this, but I seem to remember hearing that. These things are build for impact by a 747, so I do not think the explosion itself would hurt the containment vessels. The infrastructure around them, well that is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Everyday I read this thread I learn more and more about the Japanese Govt. It is apparent they are downplaying and caught up in a swirl of inaccurate reporting. Do I expect the worst, hopefully not but it is funny to watch the posters who on day one were totally downplaying any hint of radiation leakage now backpedaling. There have been speculative statements on both extremes, however like I said many many times, with my experience in running facilities, things spiraled out of normal control. Just for a minute think of the guys and gals operating this facility, working under the most extreme conditions possible, probably have not slept for days, unsure if their families are safe, scared sheet less etc. Do not underestimate the human factor, mistakes have been made. Let's see what happens but it is nobody's right to say it can not happen good or bad. This is unprecedented. Not good fellas not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 This is a quick update that I just came across: http://rt.com/news/officials-explosion-fukoshima-claims/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Here is a question, since we know for sure that two containment buildings have already exploded from uncontrolled hydrogen buildup, wouldnt that in itself provide some evidence to support that there is damage to the reactor? I am sure they arent intentionally releasing hydrogen into the containment buildings so how is it getting there and building into a concentration strong enough to blow the containment building apart? This has been covered before several times, but since this thread is now quite long... Actually, they are "sort of" allowing the hydrogen to build up. The hydrogen is coming from inside the reactor core when they pour seawater on the fuel rod frame. The fuel rods are now so hot (above 2200 F) that the water is reacting (oxidizing) with a metal in the frame, releasing hydrogen. To relieve the pressure in the core they are releasing gas out of the core and into the containment building. The reactor core itself is 6" thick stainless steel, designed to do what the Twin Towers couldn't (survive a direct hit from a passenger jet). This makes it extremely unlikely that the earlier explosions did any damage of significance to the reactor core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Disaster Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I think that I heard during an interview that this is a by product of the use of sea water, possibly corroding the fuel rods. Not sure on this, but I seem to remember hearing that. These things are build for impact by a 747, so I do not think the explosion itself would hurt the containment vessels. The infrastructure around them, well that is another story. Still doesnt explain how the hydrogen from the reactor is making it into the containment building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Everyday I read this thread I learn more and more about the Japanese Govt. It is apparent they are downplaying and caught up in a swirl of inaccurate reporting. Do I expect the worst, hopefully not but it is funny to watch the posters who on day one were totally downplaying any hint of radiation leakage now backpedaling. There have been speculative statements on both extremes, however like I said many many times, with my experience in running facilities, things spiraled out of normal control. Just for a minute think of the guys and gals operating this facility, working under the most extreme conditions possible, probably have not slept for days, unsure if their families are safe, scared sheet less etc. Do not underestimae the human factor, mistakes have been made. Let's see what happens but it is nobodies right to say it can not happen good or bad. This is unprecedented. Not good fellas not good. Agreed. This is most definitely an "all hands on deck" situation. They have their families, and their own well being to worry about. I kind of think about that bad movie with Harrison Ford, about the Russian Sub, and the guys who volunteered to go into the reactor to help save the sub. I am hoping for the best, but fear that this is ramping up to a grim crescendo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Still doesnt explain how the hydrogen from the reactor is making it into the containment building. My understanding that they were manually venting it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 This is a quick update that I just came across: http://rt.com/news/o...koshima-claims/ Anyone who's been paying attention to what's been happening knew there was a threat of another explosion the second they said the fuel rods were becoming exposed. The heat buildup would quickly cause hydrogen to be created when additional water gets added to the now-superheated core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Still doesnt explain how the hydrogen from the reactor is making it into the containment building. famartin has this, he is the one to check with on this, see above explanation if you have paged past it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Disaster Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 This has been covered before several times, but since this thread is now quite long... Actually, they are "sort of" allowing the hydrogen to build up. The hydrogen is coming from inside the reactor core when they pour seawater on the fuel rod frame. The fuel rods are now so hot (above 2200 F) that the water is reacting (oxidizing) with a metal in the frame, releasing hydrogen. To relieve the pressure in the core they are releasing gas out of the core and into the containment building. The reactor core itself is 6" thick stainless steel, designed to do what the Twin Towers couldn't (survive a direct hit from a passenger jet). This makes it extremely unlikely that the earlier explosions did any damage of significance to the reactor core. Not sure why people keep mentioning the passenger just thing, thats somewhat totally unrelated to internal pressure buildup in a reactor. Unless the entire cooling system is underground and blast proof, there is going to be some damage to the components housed inside the containment building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Anyone who's been paying attention to what's been happening knew there was a threat of another explosion the second they said the fuel rods were becoming exposed. The heat buildup would quickly cause hydrogen to be created when additional water gets added to the now-superheated core. You seem to know this stuff. Background? I am just a physics junky, but you seem to know what you are talking about. What do you think happens from here? Does the fuel get out of the vessel? Ground water? Explosion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cut Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Not sure why people keep mentioning the passenger just thing, thats somewhat totally unrelated to internal pressure buildup in a reactor. Unless the entire cooling system is underground and blast proof, there is going to be some damage to the components housed inside the containment building. no ... closed systems, just like a relay switch in electricity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Not sure why people keep mentioning the passenger just thing, thats somewhat totally unrelated to internal pressure buildup in a reactor. Unless the entire cooling system is underground and blast proof, there is going to be some damage to the components housed inside the containment building. The coolant system is definitely damaged, as it no longer is capable of bringing in or removing water. That's why they've resorted to pouring in seawater and venting out excess gas. But the reactor core itself is unlikely to be damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hydrogen forms when superheated steam reacts with zirconium, producing a metal oxide of zirconium and hydrogen gas. TMI had a hydrogen bubble, but it never came in contact with air, and without oxygen it couldn't explode. The explosions MAY have happened when they were venting pressure, the hydrogen would have risen to the top of the vessel and been vented first into the outer containment, and might have been hot enough to spontaneously combust with the oxygen present in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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