B-Rent Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Where are these reports that the containment units have been compromised. Someone please source it. I have not seen any. Those things are designed to withstand significant impacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslkahuna Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 why on earth would someone build one of these plants so close to the ocean where something like this can happen!! STUPID! For the same reason that PG&E tried to build a Nuclear plant on Bodega Head north of SFO RIGHT ON TOP OF THE SAN ANDREAS FAULT-fortunately sanity prevailed and it was built somewhere else. Planners think dollars and not geology. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Where are these reports that the containment units have been compromised. Someone please source it. I have not seen any. Those things are designed to withstand significant impacts. Until there are credible reports that the containment units have been damaged, its hard to believe much yet. Maybe they were, but you are right, we haven't seen anything that would be considered credible and definitive that there is damage to those units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott747 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Thank you for that link. A nice strong west-to-east fetch would have been good to see. Bears watching. Earlier when they were talking about the possibility of venting they mentioned one reason they considered it was because of the wind blowing any release out to sea. Of course that was about six hours or so ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Kyodo reporting: BREAKING NEWS: Pressure successfully released from Fukushima No. 1 reactor: agency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Post this link over here as well. Its a live blog from the BBC. Looks to be updated every 10-30 min with bits of info from Japan, including the nuclear worries. BBC Live Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozart Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Earlier when they were talking about the possibility of venting they mentioned one reason they considered it was because of the wind blowing any release out to sea. Of course that was about six hours or so ago... Just checked the forecast for Sendai in Weather Underground. Light SW to WSW winds expected through Monday. Northeasteries expected Monday night through Tuesday night. http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/47590.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Where are these reports that the containment units have been compromised. Someone please source it. I have not seen any. Those things are designed to withstand significant impacts. If there is a leak of radiation that has nothing to do with the venting, which has been suspended, woudln't that signify a breach in the containment unit? This wasn't a tiny impact... this was a 8.9 - 9.1 magnitude earthquake. I don't care how strong you build your buildings, that's a lot of freaking energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 If there is a leak of radiation that has nothing to do with the venting, which has been suspended, woudln't that signify a breach in the containment unit? This wasn't a tiny impact... this was a 8.9 - 9.1 magnitude earthquake. I don't care how strong you build your buildings, that's a lot of freaking energy. There still hasn't been credible reports of significant damage. Until there is, then some of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. It was indeed a very powerful quake, but that doesn't mean every structure received considerable damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/world/asia/13nuclear.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimesglobal&seid=auto Japan Orders Evacuation Near 2nd Nuclear Plant WASHINGTON — Japanese officials issued broad evacuation orders on Saturday for people living near two nuclear power plants whose cooling systems broke down as a result of the earthquake. The officials warned that small amounts of radioactive material were likely to leak from the plants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 There still hasn't been credible reports of significant damage. Until there is, then some of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. It was indeed a very powerful quake, but that doesn't mean every structure received considerable damage. I think any leak of radioactive material from a nuclear power plant, no matter where in the world, would be considered significant. Didn't they try building one of these things on Long Island? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 If there is a leak of radiation that has nothing to do with the venting, which has been suspended, woudln't that signify a breach in the containment unit? This wasn't a tiny impact... this was a 8.9 - 9.1 magnitude earthquake. I don't care how strong you build your buildings, that's a lot of freaking energy. It is a lot of energy, but it's not like all the buildings in Japan toppled over. There are houses nearby that didn't have hundreds of millions of dollars pumped into them that withstood the earthquake and even the tsunami.The fact that I hear people bringing up Chernobyl is enough to make me realize that the people talking about it have no clue what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Background quickie on TMI http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html Although the TMI-2 plant suffered a severe core meltdown, the most dangerous kind of nuclear power accident, it did not produce the worst-case consequences that reactor experts had long feared. In a worst-case accident, the melting of nuclear fuel would lead to a breach of the walls of the containment building and release massive quantities of radiation to the environment. But this did not occur as a result of the three Mile Island accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I think any leak of radioactive material from a nuclear power plant, no matter where in the world, would be considered significant. Didn't they try building one of these things on Long Island? The magnitude is significant and matters. If its minor then its nothing more than a big scare story that the media is overplaying. If indeed there is a huge problem, then obviously that warrants a lot of fear. But we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on sketchy information. Radioactive material being detected is a worry, but we don't know yet whether its pretty minor or likely will lead to a bigger problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The magnitude is significant and matters. If its minor then its nothing more than a big scare story that the media is overplaying. If indeed there is a huge problem, then obviously that warrants a lot of fear. That never happens. Especially during disasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 That never happens. Especially during disasters. There's always a "disaster crowd" in these events that lead the way in trying to report the worst case scenario as imminent. The media usually leads the way as that is what drives ratings. The fact that this is being compared to Chernobyl at times is pretty ridiculous. From everything we've heard that is credible, this is nothing close to Chernobyl. Doesn't mean it can't get worse, but have to start with what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Background quickie on TMI http://www.nrc.gov/r...3mile-isle.html TMI wasn't a full meltdown though... they corrected it in the end and it was only 1 reactor. I cannot imagine the environmental and human casualties if 5 reactors go critical and lose containment. Sorry, but I don't buy the six mile radius stuff.. sounds a lot like to me what the EPA said about the air around ground zero after 9/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The magnitude is significant and matters. If its minor then its nothing more than a big scare story that the media is overplaying. If indeed there is a huge problem, then obviously that warrants a lot of fear. But we shouldn't jump to conclusions based on sketchy information. Radioactive material being detected is a worry, but we don't know yet whether its pretty minor or likely will lead to a bigger problem. Agreed. I pray that this is just media hype. Japan has enough problems on its hands... And honestly, I didn't know Japan had any nuclear powerplants until yesterday. I thought they would've rejected it for fear of what's happening right now.... too many memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 I think any leak of radioactive material from a nuclear power plant, no matter where in the world, would be considered significant. Didn't they try building one of these things on Long Island? Decades ago. I think it is what killed LILCO. A properly designed reactor, with proper redundancies and safety systems, should be quite safe. I operated several types of naval reactor, and they had had redundancies in everything, and a system called reactor fill to pump borated water on the reactor in case of a worst case lost of cooling accident. Some of this was because the plants were on warships and could experience battle damage, but the Navy was a little less obsessed about the bottom line than a commercial plant. A coal plant released more radiation than a properly operating nuke plant, and nuke plants emit no greenhouse gases that may or may not be contributing to climate change. But with Three Mile Island, and Chernobyl (a graphite plant, incredibly outdated) I don't think a nuclear plant will get built here anytime soon. And there is the issue of spent fuel. Spent fuel can be recycled to recover more fuel, but that is not done in this country, and with the spent fuel rods remaining radioactive for a long, long time, not many people want nuclear waste dumps nearby. IIRC, one of Chernobyl's many design flaws was a positive alpha-t. Most reactors have a negative alpha-t, increased temperatures reduce water density, and water moderates (slows) the speed of the neutrons to a range where they can trigger another fission reaction. A US plant, if temps spiked for any reason, the reactor power would drop. TMI was a partial meltdown due to exposing the core because the pressurizer relief valve failed to close after a turbine trip caused a loss of feed, which triggered a temperature spike despite of an immediate reactor scram, and the operators did not detect it, I believe Chernobyl had an explosion (not really a weapons type explosion) while at power. And, IIRC, faily low level managers had approved an experiment that turned out to be a very bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janetjanet998 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 what king of reactors are these? graphite or light water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Agreed. I pray that this is just media hype. Japan has enough problems on its hands... And honestly, I didn't know Japan had any nuclear powerplants until yesterday. I thought they would've rejected it for fear of what's happening right now.... too many memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Resources poor country. France is another country that has a significant portion of its electric power from nukes. TMI was a big scare, but I don't think the environmental release of radiation was enough to cause any illness. I'm sure studies have been done looking for increased cancers and birth defects, I don't recall hearing any that showed anything too significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovintheWhiteFluff Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 TMI wasn't a full meltdown though... they corrected it in the end and it was only 1 reactor. I cannot imagine the environmental and human casualties if 5 reactors go critical and lose containment. Sorry, but I don't buy the six mile radius stuff.. sounds a lot like to me what the EPA said about the air around ground zero after 9/11. Lots of places in Europe were shown to have radioactive material from Chernobyl. All sorts of plants and even animals in Sweden, France, England, etc showed elevated levels of cesium. But once again, they had no containment structures up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 what king of reactors are these? graphite or light water? The better question would be pressurized water or boiling water reactors. IN pressurized water reactors, the water doesn't boil in the reactor even at temperatures around 500ºF because a vessel called a pressurizer is attached, which has steam over water, with the steam produced by electric heaters. The heaters cycle on and off to keep pressure within a safe range. If pressure rises, a valve opens that sprays the ~500ºF water into the steam, which is much hotter (whatever the equilibrium is at about 2000 psi) reducing the size of the steam bubble and dropping pressure. If that doesn't work quickly enough, there is a relief valve that opens to vent steam off the pressurizer to another containment system. I've never operated a boiling water reactor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The better question would be pressurized water or boiling water reactors. IN pressurized water reactors, the water doesn't boil in the reactor even at temperatures around 500ºF because a vessel called a pressurizer is attached, which has steam over water, with the steam produced by electric heaters. The heaters cycle on and off to keep pressure within a safe range. If pressure rises, a valve opens that sprays the ~500ºF water into the steam, which is much hotter (whatever the equilibrium is at about 2000 psi) reducing the size of the steam bubble and dropping pressure. If that doesn't work quickly enough, there is a relief valve that opens to vent steam off the pressurizer to another containment system. I've never operated a boiling water reactor. They are BWR's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PottercountyWXobserver Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 http://www.straitsti...ory_644342.html TOKYO - JAPANESE quake-hit nuclear plant Fukushima No. 1, located about 250km north-east of Tokyo, 'may be experiencing a nuclear meltdown', Kyodo and Jiji news reported on Saturday. Parts of the reactor's nuclear fuel rods were briefly exposed to the air after cooling water levels dropped through evaporation, and a fire engine was pumping water into the reactor, Jiji Press reported. The water levels are recovering, said operator Tokyo Electric Power, according to Jiji. Just like the movie atomic twister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Just like the movie atomic twister From the BBC 0731: More from NHK TV: People outside a 10km radius from the Fukushima-Daiichi plant should be safe. About 80,000 people live within a 10km radius of the plant, and evacuations of those people began at 1000 local time. 0728: NHK TV says authorities are pumping water into the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant to try to cool it but that the level of cooling water is sinking. 0725: Japanese public broadcaster NHK is reporting that cesium has been detected around the nuclear power plant Fukushima-Daiichi. It quotes an expert as saying a small part of a fuel rod may have melted, but that fuel is almost entirely inside reactor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Resources poor country. France is another country that has a significant portion of its electric power from nukes. TMI was a big scare, but I don't think the environmental release of radiation was enough to cause any illness. I'm sure studies have been done looking for increased cancers and birth defects, I don't recall hearing any that showed anything too significant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident_health_effects Interesting article.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PottercountyWXobserver Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Agreed. I pray that this is just media hype. Japan has enough problems on its hands... And honestly, I didn't know Japan had any nuclear powerplants until yesterday. I thought they would've rejected it for fear of what's happening right now.... too many memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They don't really have a choice in the matter, for energy concerns they have no natural fuel source. They have no coal or petroleum or any for of hydrocarbons for that matter. They import most hydrocarbon products and really the only choice for self sufficiency was Nuclear and hydro. That is why their government is putting a lot of research in "gas hydrates" for a potential fuel source as they could gather this at the bottom of ocean methane vents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PottercountyWXobserver Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 From the BBC 0731: More from NHK TV: People outside a 10km radius from the Fukushima-Daiichi plant should be safe. About 80,000 people live within a 10km radius of the plant, and evacuations of those people began at 1000 local time. 0728: NHK TV says authorities are pumping water into the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant to try to cool it but that the level of cooling water is sinking. 0725: Japanese public broadcaster NHK is reporting that cesium has been detected around the nuclear power plant Fukushima-Daiichi. It quotes an expert as saying a small part of a fuel rod may have melted, but that fuel is almost entirely inside reactor. It's defininetly an intense situation but this is not similar to chernobyl, but more like TMI. As far from what I have researched the containment building hasn't been breached. The presence of radioactive isotopes of cesium and iodine is a bit concerning, which may possibly indicate some minor leakage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneyman Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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