1 year ago

[Fozz]

Notable Snowstorms at the NWS Office at Upton This Century:

Dec. 20, 2009: 26.3"

Feb. 16. 2003: 21.1"

Dec. 5, 2003: 19.8"

Dec . 26, 2010: 18.8"

Jan. 23, 2005: 17.5"

March 5, 2001: 14.2"

Jan. 11, 2011: 14.1"

March 2, 2009: 14.0"

Feb. 11, 2006: 13.9"

Feb. 10, 2010: 13.4"

Jan. 27, 2011: 13.3"

Feb. 26, 2010: 10.4"

This almost looks like Philly's pre-2009 list of top 10 snowstorms on record. It's absolutely incredible that all of this is just the last 10 years.

[nzucker]

NYC has had above average snowfall in 7 out of the last 9 winters starting in '02-'03. Only '07-'08 and '06-'07 were below avg. That is a remarkable run. Despite Boston's good decade, they have had in that same time span only 5 out of 9 being above average.Though BOS really cleaned up compared to the M.A. in '04-'05, '07-'08, and '08-'09 (and now '10-'11...esp compared to S of NYC...NYC has th ebest anomaly this winter) so their mean is still very high in those 9 years...and the only monster dud was '06-'07. Despite '09-'10 being sucky for screw jobs, they were still just shy of 36" which isn't horrendously below avg.

06-07 was like a 15" winter here and 07-08 maybe 20", pretty poor. But NYC has the highest anomaly in snowfall of any East Coast city since 2002-03, even with DC/BWI having had such a remarkable season last year. NYC really jackpotted in 03-04 when no one else did, and they bested the northern cities last year with the 2/25 Snowicane. The 60"+ measured at Central Park this season is over double the 100-year average, and it makes 09-10/10-11 the snowiest two consecutive seasons ever seen in Central Park since records began in 1869. I realize how lucky I've been to have grown up in this decade and seen all these exciting events, as NYC went 15 years without a blizzard between February 1978 and March 1993. In contrast, I've had five storms of over a foot in the last two winters, and nine 8"+ storms since December 2008, including the biggest event for my backyard since March 1960 with the 26" last year in the Snowicane.

There's been a weird snowfall pattern this winter...NYC/BOS/PHL have all gotten hammered, with the northern cities getting the most as per La Niña climo. DCA/BWI have had a mediocre winter, but then SE VA and parts of NC have seen a blockbuster. It's so rare for ORF to have more than DCA, and yet they've managed it this year with even Virginia Beach getting a solid 20" winter. Parts of the Deep South have also had record cold in December and several major snowfalls. So the Niña gradient seems to work looking at DCA-BOS but then falls apart when you look further south.

[Guest Pamela]

other than the late 50s-mid60s...... was there any period on record which anywhere near resembles the concentrated number of large snowstorms in the nyc metro area?

It looks like the late 1870's had some nice size storms in NYC...along with the early to mid 1920's.

[ORH_wxman]

06-07 was like a 15" winter here and 07-08 maybe 20", pretty poor. But NYC has the highest anomaly in snowfall of any East Coast city since 2002-03, even with DC/BWI having had such a remarkable season last year. NYC really jackpotted in 03-04 when no one else did, and they bested the northern cities last year with the 2/25 Snowicane. The 60"+ measured at Central Park this season is over double the 100-year average, and it makes 09-10/10-11 the snowiest two consecutive seasons ever seen in Central Park since records began in 1869. I realize how lucky I've been to have grown up in this decade and seen all these exciting events, as NYC went 15 years without a blizzard between February 1978 and March 1993. In contrast, I've had five storms of over a foot in the last two winters, and nine 8"+ storms since December 2008, including the biggest event for my backyard since March 1960 with the 26" last year in the Snowicane.

There's been a weird snowfall pattern this winter...NYC/BOS/PHL have all gotten hammered, with the northern cities getting the most as per La Niña climo. DCA/BWI have had a mediocre winter, but then SE VA and parts of NC have seen a blockbuster. It's so rare for ORF to have more than DCA, and yet they've managed it this year with even Virginia Beach getting a solid 20" winter. Parts of the Deep South have also had record cold in December and several major snowfalls. So the Niña gradient seems to work looking at DCA-BOS but then falls apart when you look further south.

The south did pretty well in '88-'89 Nina...but yeah, its rare for them to cash in liek they have during the past ninas. Its also rare for NYC to get 60"+ of snow in a strong Nina (or unprecedented)

Since 2000-2001, NYC has def done the best relative to climo of any of the I-95 cities. Since '92-'93, its been BOS...as they managed to do quite well in the 2000s (just not as well as NYC) but then knocked it out of the park in the 1990s after 1992. William references that period quite a bit since 1992-1993. Its been a remarkable run. My own area in ORH has averaged around 76" since 1992-1993 which is a full 7" above climo (and will likely bump up another inch or more after this season)...pretty remarkable for a 19 year stretch....not just talking a 8 or 10 year stretch.

[nzucker]

Compared to the 2/25-26/10 snow map:

The axis of heavy snow definitely made it further west into NJ in 1888 (hence the 24 inches in my area as opposed to 8 ) as well as further east into LI, CT, and MA. And of course the axis of heaviest snow in 1888 was also heavier with widespread 30 to even 40+ inch totals.

This map is deceiving though because there was another snowfall event on 2/24 which affected the totals. Those were two separate storms, one being a SW flow event that trended into a coastal, and the second being the retrograding blizzard.

1888 not elevation dependent once cold air filtered in...temps west of the wind shift line quickly fell into the teens and single digits.

Right, but the higher elevation suburbs may have piled up 6" or so before the city started accumulating, which makes me think my area would have seen somewhere in the range of 36". This happened in the Snowicane last year when I already had 10" by late in the day when other parts of Westchester closer to LI Sound or lower in elevation were just starting to accumulate. That made a difference in seeing a pedestrian large snowstorm like 16" and a historic event like 26"..

[green tube]

from 1970 to 2000 there were 3 storms of 15"+ here (c-nj).

there have been 3 storms of 15"+ in the last 12 months.

[nzucker]

It looks like the late 1870's had some nice size storms in NYC...along with the early to mid 1920's.

The period from 1915-16 through the mid 1920s was a snowy one for NYC aside from the putrid 1918-19 winter.

[green tube]

It looks like the late 1870's had some nice size storms in NYC...along with the early to mid 1920's.

from your wording, it sounds like those were brief periods.

what's going on now has been sustained for a decade... and i'm no longer assuming the trend is just going to disappear.

[ORH_wxman]

from 1970 to 2000 there were 3 storms of 15"+ here (c-nj).

there have been 3 storms of 15"+ in the last 12 months.

Its amazing the run that you guys have been on in NJ.

We experienced that type of run between 1992 and 2005. For ORH, from 1948-1992 (pre Dec '92), there were 9 storms of 18"+....between Dec 1992 and Jan 2005, there were another 9 storms of 18"+ including the top 3 of 33.0" (apr 1997), 32.1" (Dec 1992) and 26.3" (Dec 1996)....we got our first 18"+ storm this winter on Jan 12th since the Jan 2005 blizzard.

I experienced 1988-1992 here which was the worst period in the recorded history for snowfall here....so I came to appreciate the big snows when you get on a run like that. Many of us often comment on how the younger snow weenies would ever deal with a 1980s type decade...both in your area and mine. Some of them just can't comprehend it. Its easy to try and envision it, but its a totally different thing to live it. It really sucks.

[Guest Pamela]

Ray (40/70 benchmark) is only about 15 miles NW of BOS at about 100 feet above sea level and he averages 61-62" per year there too...so the immediate suburbs are quite a bit snowier than the immediate NYC suburbs (inside of 20 miles) than KBOS is vs KNYC are just using airport totals.

I think a lot of that creates the discrepancies we see in "perception". Numbers are great, but sometimes you have to dig to see where they came from. Without the more interactive and information trading we have today, I bet a ton of people would still think your area on the north shore of LI is still less snowy than NYC when you average a solid 4-5" more than them per season. But the "perception" in the 1980s and probably most of the 1990s was that you averaged considerably less because you stuck out in the ocean. But we know that is not true in reality. The north shore of LI acts almost like a "mini SNE" in that it uses the central hills and the land mass to the south to "Block" some of the warm air intrusion and in addition they aren't afraid to use the latitude advantage that many ignore.

The so called micro climate has fascinated me since I was a kid. When I was 18, I drove to Norfolk, CT (elevation 1337 feet) in the NW corner of the state. I had read in the NCDC pubs that their average annual snowfall (then) was 110". I simply could not believe that a town less than 60 miles from Bridgeport could average so much snow...elevation or no elevation. Well, as I climbed Route 44 pushing WNW from Winsted, to my amazement I went from a town with minimal snow cover to 7 miles up the road in Norfolk...and nearly 25" on the ground. Never did I doubt the possibility of the so called "microclimate" again.

[nzucker]

Its amazing the run that you guys have been on in NJ.

We experienced that type of run between 1992 and 2005. For ORH, from 1948-1992 (pre Dec '92), there were 9 storms of 18"+....between Dec 1992 and Jan 2005, there were another 9 storms of 18"+ including the top 3 of 33.0" (apr 1997), 32.1" (Dec 1992) and 26.3" (Dec 1996)....we got our first 18"+ storm this winter on Jan 12th since the Jan 2005 blizzard.

Do you believe we are heading into a snowier period with the NAO/AO and the solar minimum? Do you think we'll continue to see more large snowstorms as well as increased average annual snowfall for DCA-NYC in the next 10-20 years?

Also, do you think global warming has contributed to the big storms by making more precipitation available when the set-up is correct for snow? It just seems uncanny that NYC's biggest snowstorms have by and large been since 1996. Could it be luck too?

[Guest Pamela]

This map is deceiving though because there was another snowfall event on 2/24 which affected the totals. Those were two separate storms, one being a SW flow event that trended into a coastal, and the second being the retrograding blizzard.

Right, but the higher elevation suburbs may have piled up 6" or so before the city started accumulating, which makes me think my area would have seen somewhere in the range of 36". This happened in the Snowicane last year when I already had 10" by late in the day when other parts of Westchester closer to LI Sound or lower in elevation were just starting to accumulate. That made a difference in seeing a pedestrian large snowstorm like 16" and a historic event like 26"..

It is my understanding that most of N. Jersey was in the 20 to 25 inch range for the '88 storm...SW CT and SE NY generally saw 10 to 15 inches more.

[ORH_wxman]

The so called micro climate has fascinated me since I was a kid. When I was 18, I drove to Norfolk, CT (elevation 1337 feet) in the NW corner of the state. I had read in the NCDC pubs that their average annual snowfall (then) was 110". I simply could not believe that a town less than 60 miles from Bridgeport could average so much snow...elevation or no elevation. Well, as I climbed Route 44 pushing WNW from Winsted, to my amazement I went from a town with minimal snow cover to 7 miles up the road in Norfolk...and nearly 25" on the ground. Never did I doubt the possibility of the so called "microclimate" again.

I think the 110" is high...though it was probably accurate back then but just not enough sample size (though I could be mistaken on that). I think their avg is 94" now. But regardless your point remains true. You can drive 5 miles from nothing to a massive snow pack in that part of CT.

We all have microclimates in our own areas. Your BY on the north shore of LI is one of them. Ed posts snow pack pics when 7 miles in any direction is bare ground. Even where I am (which is a decent little microclimate on the north side of Worcester and quite different from the south side)....I'll lose my snow pack and then drive 10 miles up the road in Princeton MA and see 10" on the ground....its always fascinating to me. In a pedestrian event I can get 4" and wouldn't think they would get a whole lot more but then see they had 6.3" and then drive up and verify it....its pretty amazing. Micro climates are kind of a frontier in meteorology to me. They aren't well known by the average met. Only the most astute mets seem to commonly acknowledge them. They are always a point of interest to me though. I think a lot can be learned in improving forecasting skills by educating one's self on micro climates.

[nzucker]

It is my understanding that most of N. Jersey was in the 20 to 25 inch range for the '88 storm...SW CT and SE NY generally saw 10 to 15 inches more.

NYC definitely underreported....21" is way less than what they got. Probably more like upper 20s...some places in Brooklyn reported that and there was the 36" report from the Bronx (which would have gotten more than Central Park due to colder temperatures but not THAT much more).

I know New Haven had 48" and Saratoga 55". It's such a weird snowfall distribution...usually the coastals that crush NYC and the CT coastline don't get heavy snow as far north as Albany/Saratoga/VT. I have to wonder what the banding must have looked like.

In any case, March 1888 is clearly the most powerful snowstorm the East Coast has experienced in many centuries. We think February 1978 is a big deal with the 40" amounts in E MA and N RI, we think January 1996 was a big deal with 20-25" up the entire East Coast...but March 1888 was a storm that produced 30" for an incredibly wide area from NYC to Upstate NY to SNE to VT. I just can't imagine what it must have been like.

[ORH_wxman]

Do you believe we are heading into a snowier period with the NAO/AO and the solar minimum? Do you think we'll continue to see more large snowstorms as well as increased average annual snowfall for DCA-NYC in the next 10-20 years?

Also, do you think global warming has contributed to the big storms by making more precipitation available when the set-up is correct for snow? It just seems uncanny that NYC's biggest snowstorms have by and large been since 1996. Could it be luck too?

I think we are headed into a snowier period...yes. The NAO decadal cycle is in our favor and that alone would argue for a snowier period. As for the increased larger storms....I don't believe gloabal warming has contributed. I think some (not all) of the higher totals are just because we are much more astute at measuring every 6 hours on the climo sites. The old days it wasn't as rigid.

We really do not have a long enough climo history to say whether these storms are that unprecedented. The 1970s (aisde from a couple great storms) and 1980s put a huge dent into the snowfall climo....yet the 1960s were great and so were a period in the early 1900s and a brief period in the 1940s. Its hard to say how ridiculous it is to get a string of big storms. Some of it is luck and I think some of it is measuring techniques. An 18" storm from yesteryear is now a 23" storm in the record books.

[Guest Pamela]

I think the 110" is high...though it was probably accurate back then but just not enough sample size (though I could be mistaken on that). I think their avg is 94" now. But regardless your point remains true. You can drive 5 miles from nothing to a massive snow pack in that part of CT.

We all have microclimates in our own areas. Your BY on the north shore of LI is one of them. Ed posts snow pack pics when 7 miles in any direction is bare ground. Even where I am (which is a decent little microclimate on the north side of Worcester and quite different from the south side)....I'll lose my snow pack and then drive 10 miles up the road in Princeton MA and see 10" on the ground....its always fascinating to me. In a pedestrian event I can get 4" and wouldn't think they would get a whole lot more but then see they had 6.3" and then drive up and verify it....its pretty amazing. Micro climates are kind of a frontier in meteorology to me. They aren't well known by the average met. Only the most astute mets seem to commonly acknowledge them. They are always a point of interest to me though. I think a lot can be learned in improving forecasting skills by educating one's self on micro climates.

Yeah that was based based on the 1951-1973 numbers...incorporating the 1955-56 winter (177") didn't hurt...

[nzucker]

Yeah that was based based on the 1951-1973 numbers...incorporating the 1955-56 winter (177") didn't hurt...

That's absurd, 177" in CT.

How much did they record in the March 1956 Nor'easter? What were the other big snowfalls that year for Norfolk? I know there was one decent event in December 1955 for the coast, or at least seem to recall that, but not sure that Jan/Feb was so great.

[Guest Pamela]

NYC definitely underreported....21" is way less than what they got. Probably more like upper 20s...some places in Brooklyn reported that and there was the 36" report from the Bronx (which would have gotten more than Central Park due to colder temperatures but not THAT much more).

I know New Haven had 48" and Saratoga 55". It's such a weird snowfall distribution...usually the coastals that crush NYC and the CT coastline don't get heavy snow as far north as Albany/Saratoga/VT. I have to wonder what the banding must have looked like.

In any case, March 1888 is clearly the most powerful snowstorm the East Coast has experienced in many centuries. We think February 1978 is a big deal with the 40" amounts in E MA and N RI, we think January 1996 was a big deal with 20-25" up the entire East Coast...but March 1888 was a storm that produced 30" for an incredibly wide area from NYC to Upstate NY to SNE to VT. I just can't imagine what it must have been like.

The 1888 NYC measurement receives much criticism...but I have read the long written weather log of the men on duty from 3/11 - 3/14....they appeared to be very responsible and meticulous with their reporting...right down to the precise minute the rain changed to snow...and since N. Jersey had many 20 - 25 inch totals...it is hard to easily discount the #'s recorded by the then "NYC Weather Bureau".

[Fozz]

I think the 110" is high...though it was probably accurate back then but just not enough sample size (though I could be mistaken on that). I think their avg is 94" now. But regardless your point remains true. You can drive 5 miles from nothing to a massive snow pack in that part of CT.

We all have microclimates in our own areas. Your BY on the north shore of LI is one of them. Ed posts snow pack pics when 7 miles in any direction is bare ground. Even where I am (which is a decent little microclimate on the north side of Worcester and quite different from the south side)....I'll lose my snow pack and then drive 10 miles up the road in Princeton MA and see 10" on the ground....its always fascinating to me. In a pedestrian event I can get 4" and wouldn't think they would get a whole lot more but then see they had 6.3" and then drive up and verify it....its pretty amazing. Micro climates are kind of a frontier in meteorology to me. They aren't well known by the average met. Only the most astute mets seem to commonly acknowledge them. They are always a point of interest to me though. I think a lot can be learned in improving forecasting skills by educating one's self on micro climates.

Microclimates are definitely interesting and it continues to amaze me that some areas that are less 10 miles from me average 30-35", while I average 25" and the immediate I-95 corridor in my state gets exactly 20".

One of the most striking examples was the storm on 12/5/2009, which was a marginal 33 degree snowstorm, where elevation really mattered. My backyard got nearly 6" of snow from that storm, but just a few miles away at my cousins house there was only 2" with a lot of bare patches.

[Guest Pamela]

That's absurd, 177" in CT.

How much did they record in the March 1956 Nor'easter? What were the other big snowfalls that year for Norfolk? I know there was one decent event in December 1955 for the coast, or at least seem to recall that, but not sure that Jan/Feb was so great.

Norfolk had a lot of little storms that winter...they did have 10.3" on Nov 5, 1955.....32.3" from March 17 to March 20, 1956....and 19.2" from April 7 to April 9, 1956. The March snowfall was 73.6", IIRC.

[nzucker]

Microclimates are definitely interesting and it continues to amaze me that some areas that are less 10 miles from me average 30-35", while I average 25" and the immediate I-95 corridor in my state gets exactly 20".

One of the most striking examples was the storm on 12/5/2009, which was a marginal 33 degree snowstorm, where elevation really mattered. My backyard got nearly 6" of snow from that storm, but just a few miles away at my cousins house there was only 2" with a lot of bare patches.

We have a house in NE PA in the northern fringe of the Poconos, and that's one of the best places to learn about microclimates. I went there in January 2009 and there was about 8" snow pack at my house at 1500', went hiking the next day in the ridges around 2000' and there was nearly 20" on the ground. There's an incredibly sharp gradient between the snowfalls experienced by the Poconos and those experienced down in the river valley near Scranton. There was one clipper in January 2009 that dropped 1" in Scranton and 11" at my house 45 miles away, just because of orographic enhancement and a slightly better vort track. My house averages like 75" a year but downtown Scranton is probably closer to 50" year...even driving south and downhill towards the small town of Honesdale about 20 mi south of us, you notice a huge drop-off in snowfall.

The Alleghany Plateau in general is really interesting for microclimates from the Catskills/Poconos out to western NY. Once you get past Binghamton, elevation starts to matter a lot more since the storm track doesn't favor a lot of synoptic events in these locales. I'm sure Will knows this well having gone to school in Cornell. Some of those ridges can really get hammered with 75-80" per year, especially in the Wellsville area, whereas the low areas like Elmira average around 40" per year, the same as NYC suburbs where I grew up despite the latitude and elevation advantage. The landscape is incredibly rugged from the aged plateau so you can get quick changes in snowfall/icing, etc.

[ORH_wxman]

Norfolk had a lot of little storms that winter...they did have 10.3" on Nov 5, 1955.....32.3" from March 17 to March 20, 1956....and 19.2" from April 7 to April 9, 1956. The March snowfall was 73.6", IIRC.

Ashburnham to the north of me on the east slope of the ORH hills had quite the winter in '71-'72. That microclimate was quite evident that winter. I believe they came inside of 20" of the state record for snowfall in one season which is impressive.

[Guest Pamela]

Ashburnham to the north of me on the east slope of the ORH hills had quite the winter in '71-'72. That microclimate was quite evident that winter. I believe they came inside of 20" of the state record for snowfall in one season which is impressive.

My gut feeling is the true state record is at the summit of Greylock...they should open a little observatory up there a la Mt Washington...think they already have a lodge...was up there last summer...one of the most pleasant places on earth...

[nzucker]

My gut feeling is the true state record is at the summit of Greylock...they should open a little observatory up there a la Mt Washington...was up there last summer...one of the most pleasant places on earth...

I hiked it in April 2008, still some patches of deep snow remaining in mid-month on Greylock. It's a nice summit but not a great hike IMO, certainly doesn't parallel the Green Mountains and Adirondacks further north in terms of rugged scenery or difficulty level, was just a steady and somewhat tedious trek upwards. Views were decent down towards Williamstown, would love to do it in fall, must be gorgeous. I still don't think of Massachusetts as a great hiking state since there's so many more exciting mountains just slightly to the north in VT/NH/Upstate NY...

[ORH_wxman]

My gut feeling is the true state record is at the summit of Greylock...they should open a little observatory up there a la Mt Washington...think they already have a lodge...was up there last summer...one of the most pleasant places on earth...

Its not a gut feeling...its reality. If there was an obs station there, they would easily have gotten 200" of snow in some of these winters which would blow away the "state record" of 156" or whatever it is. Top of Mt. Wachusett to a lesser extent N of me. They have probably had winters that exceeded 180" but if nobody is there to stick the yard stick in the ground, it doesn't count.

[nzucker]

Its not a gut feeling...its reality. If there was an obs station there, they would easily have gotten 200" of snow in some of these winters which would blow away the "state record" of 156" or whatever it is. Top of Mt. Wachusett to a lesser extent N of me. They have probably had winters that exceeded 180" but if nobody is there to stick the yard stick in the ground, it doesn't count.

I think NY State has one of the most legitimate snowfall records with the 467" Hooker received on the Tug Hill Plateau in the frigid 76-77 winter. There's no place in the state that could have possibly eclipsed the higher elevations of the Tug Hill in a banner season for LES.

[ORH_wxman]

I think NY State has one of the most legitimate snowfall records with the 467" Hooker received on the Tug Hill Plateau in the frigid 76-77 winter. There's no place in the state that could have possibly eclipsed the higher elevations of the Tug Hill in a banner season for LES.

Tug Hill is its own micro climate. They are incredible. You'd be surprised at crappy some areas are in upstate NY not all that far from it. SYR averages 112" via the airport but the city probably averages 15-20" less because they are south of the best LES that the airport gets....and the snow pack retention in SYR is awful relatively speaking. I've seen bare ground there with just piles whiles Cortland NY to their S at 1400 feet (which averages less snow by about 20-30") has over a foot on the ground.

There's areas just W of Elmira NY in the southern tier that average close to what you do....like upper 30s for snowfall. You'd never think it but out there you can get some real screw holes on the opposite end of the spectrum of those areas that rake it in.

[Guest Pamela]

I hiked it in April 2008, still some patches of deep snow remaining in mid-month on Greylock. It's a nice summit but not a great hike IMO, certainly doesn't parallel the Green Mountains and Adirondacks further north in terms of rugged scenery or difficulty level, was just a steady and somewhat tedious trek upwards. Views were decent down towards Williamstown, would love to do it in fall, must be gorgeous. I still don't think of Massachusetts as a great hiking state since there's so many more exciting mountains just slightly to the north in VT/NH/Upstate NY...

I've always liked Massachusetts as a place to live...my father held a similar view when he was alive...came close to buying a house in Becket in 1994 (elevation approximately 1800 feet).

[nzucker]

Tug Hill is its own micro climate. They are incredible. You'd be surprised at crappy some areas are in upstate NY not all that far from it. SYR averages 112" via the airport but the city probably averages 15-20" less because they are south of the best LES that the airport gets....and the snow pack retention in SYR is awful relatively speaking. I've seen bare ground there with just piles whiles Cortland NY to their S at 1400 feet (which averages less snow by about 20-30") has over a foot on the ground.

There's areas just W of Elmira NY in the southern tier that average close to what you do....like upper 30s for snowfall. You'd never think it but out there you can get some real screw holes on the opposite end of the spectrum of those areas that rake it in.

Yeah, Western NY is more susceptible to torches without CAD than areas further east. I've found that the Adirondack valleys and also the hill country near Glens Falls holds the cold the best in NY State. It's easy to scour out the cold air in Syracuse in Rochester when you have a cutter, whereas eastern NY and SNE benefits from more terrain protection in these situations. I've really seen temperatures skyrocket out there in torches...I think ROC hit 88F early last April in the torch whereas we struggled to 80F in Vermont.

I'd hate to live in Elmira or one of those areas with low elevation in central NY. You don't do well on coastals because you're too far west, you don't do well on SW flow events because you're too far south, you don't do well on clippers because you're too far south. Everything out there is just 1-3" windex events and the occasional coaster hugger, which has become a rare breed these days. I'd much rather live near NYC and have a shot at big snowfalls than those areas, the excitement here is great when you see a big Nor'easter coming, it's one of the reasons I love this area for winter. We're also averaging a lot of snow recently...about 60" per season since 08-09 and probably 45"/season since 02-03. They've suffered some snow droughts near BGM and Elmira this decade whereas we've cashed in.

[ORH_wxman]

I've always liked Massachusetts as a place to live...my father held a similar view when he was alive...came close to buying a house in Becket in 1994 (elevation approximately 1800 feet).

Becket is a great spot for snow....basically a northern extension of your Norfolk, CT fetish.

They get a lot of "rotting lake effect" upslope there. I've driven by there after an upslope LES event where everyone else was clear skies or partly cloudy with flurries and seen 6" of fresh fluff on the ground and wondered how the hell they got it.