Who gets more snow?

[NorthShoreWx]

No we haven't come to a "consensus". We have had a few people from the area analyze an extremely small sample of storms in conjunction with questionable anecdotal evidence to reach a "conclusion" they were predisposed to arrive at, while simultaneously entirely igmoring long term facts and basic climatology.

The difference in snowfall between the two towns is a good 6 inches in an average year, i.e., Lyndhurst sees 125% of the snowfall Holmdel does.

There you go blinding everybody with science again

I'll confess that I am intrigued by the discussion of additional ocean enhancement in Monmouth, although when it falls as rain its useless.

[Absolute Humidity]

Perhaps, but since holmdel has no historical record to prove without a doubt it receives less than lyndhurst, your 125% claim cannot be proved either.

[NorthShoreWx]

Its natural for most people on a board dominated by snow lovers to "defend" their local climo to a position of as much snow as possible. I am prone to it as well.

This is known as the Snowfall Phallus Fallacy. SPF factor is sky high on this board. You don't insult a man's snowfall.

[NJwinter23]

I drove around earlier and thought it was quite nice. Lots of nice looking homes, and the hills are a nice touch. I bet it looks quite nice in the summer.

My sister and brother in law were very close to buying a house in Lyndhurst this past Spring Greg, but it fell through. I really did like the area though, it is generally a very nice town once you get up the hill out of the meadows. Ridge Rd I think it is (turns into 17 once the highway ends at Rt. 3) has a sick Italian restaurant among other places. It has its own nice view of NYC from the west, though I am admittedly biased towards our stunning view of NYC from the south in Holmdel.

And yes Allsnow, the old growth forests around here are awesome. 70-100ft. poplar and oaks among others on rolling hills is hard to beat (add snow and you got yourself a great hike in our parks).

The latitude difference is the key between Lyndhurst and Holmdel when it comes to snowfall climo. Still though, I do not think it is a substantial difference from Holmdel. Substantial from coastal Monmouth yes, but probably no more then 5" annual difference from Holmdel, which as mentioned is virtually the same climo as a spot like New Brunswick in Middlesex county (will be fair and say 1-2" less because it is west of Holmdel). Also, head not too further north or west from Lyndhurst into a place like Nutley and it is a very respectable difference.

I think 5" is a fair estimated difference. I also think it is fair to say that we are over-analyzing this situation to the point of comedy right now lol

[NJwinter23]

I moved from Holmdel to edison in 05....here is a small sample size of when one area has done better then the other.....Used help from rays site also. Thankyou

Dec 9th 2005 http://www.njfreeway.../09-Dec-05.html

Pretty much a bust in monmouth county. WSW ended up with about a inch of slop in holmdel, Remeber talking to my father while i was ripping parchutes, he had sleet and rain in holmdel

Edison 6

Holmdel 1-2

Just north of me really cashed in, very graident tight storm.

I wanted to comment on this storm real quick cause my account in Holmdel was a little different. I Measured 3.5" in northern part of Holmdel that day before a changeover occurred. It snowed very heavily for maybe 2 hours here that morning and the timing was perfect to cancel school. We were right on the R/S line from the get-go and everywhere southeast of us had no accumulation. It ended as 32-33 degrees and heavy rain at my house for an hour or 2..I drove into the hills on the other side of town near the park, however, and the tops of all the trees had been coated with 1/4" of ice with the couple inches on the ground. 1 degree colder in the hills compared to my house gave them freezing rain instead of plain rain when things changed over. Going in I knew I was gnna be on the fence and in need of some luck, so to end up with nearly 4" I did not see it as a bust

[gkrangers]

My sister and brother in law were very close to buying a house in Lyndhurst this past Spring Greg, but it fell through. I really did like the area though, it is generally a very nice town once you get up the hill out of the meadows. Ridge Rd I think it is (turns into 17 once the highway ends at Rt. 3) has a sick Italian restaurant among other places. It has its own nice view of NYC from the west, though I am admittedly biased towards our stunning view of NYC from the south in Holmdel.

And yes Allsnow, the old growth forests around here are awesome. 70-100ft. poplar and oaks among others on rolling hills is hard to beat (add snow and you got yourself a great hike in our parks).

The latitude difference is the key between Lyndhurst and Holmdel when it comes to snowfall climo. Still though, I do not think it is a substantial difference from Holmdel. Substantial from coastal Monmouth yes, but probably no more then 5" annual difference from Holmdel, which as mentioned is virtually the same climo as a spot like New Brunswick in Middlesex county (will be fair and say 1-2" less because it is west of Holmdel). Also, head not too further north or west from Lyndhurst into a place like Nutley and it is a very respectable difference.

I think 5" is a fair estimated difference. I also think it is fair to say that we are over-analyzing this situation to the point of comedy right now lol

I'm just glad that my thread sparked some intellectual, if even to the point of ridiculousness, discussion. Of course, on a board like this, I should have known pitting two locales against one another would spark controversy.

The place I'm looking at renting is right off Ridge road. A few restaurants, delis, bakery, etc within walking distance.

[rgwp96]

I'm just glad that my thread sparked some intellectual, if even to the point of ridiculousness, discussion.  Of course, on a board like this, I should have known pitting two locales against one another would spark controversy.

The place I'm looking at renting is right off Ridge road.  A few restaurants, delis, bakery, etc within walking distance.

dont forget about Fatso Fogarty's, down the rd from lyndhurst on ridge rd in North arlington

[gkrangers]

dont forget about Fatso Fogarty's, down the rd from lyndhurst on ridge rd in North arlington

Fatso is a 10 minute walk from the place I'm going to rent. Bar/club?

I've also noticed that Rutt's Hutt, the deep-fried hot dog place, is right around the corner from Lyndhurst. Win!

[Allsnow]

I wanted to comment on this storm real quick cause my account in Holmdel was a little different. I Measured 3.5" in northern part of Holmdel that day before a changeover occurred. It snowed very heavily for maybe 2 hours here that morning and the timing was perfect to cancel school. We were right on the R/S line from the get-go and everywhere southeast of us had no accumulation. It ended as 32-33 degrees and heavy rain at my house for an hour or 2..I drove into the hills on the other side of town near the park, however, and the tops of all the trees had been coated with 1/4" of ice with the couple inches on the ground. 1 degree colder in the hills compared to my house gave them freezing rain instead of plain rain when things changed over. Going in I knew I was gnna be on the fence and in need of some luck, so to end up with nearly 4" I did not see it as a bust

Oh i understand, i mean any storm that gets you off of school is not a bust. I got 2 days off for the march 2001 storm, and we had about 4 inches. But my main point was areas further south did not do that great....This was the forcast for Ewing Winter Storm Warning in effect from midnight tonight to 12 PM EST Friday for total accumulation 4 to 7 inches of snow*, Its seems the lower WSW in the state did not varify. Im not calling people out on this, just giving a storm where lyndhurst did better then holmdel.

[rgwp96]

Fatso is a 10 minute walk from the place I'm going to rent.  Bar/club?

I've also noticed that Rutt's Hutt, the deep-fried hot dog place, is right around the corner from Lyndhurst.  Win!

yea its a bar, dont know how it is now but 15 years ago it was awesome.  Just dont wear new shoes or sneakers in that place.  you can never tell what you are stepping in lol

[Allsnow]

No we haven't come to a "consensus". We have had a few people from the area analyze an extremely small sample of storms in conjunction with questionable anecdotal evidence to reach a "conclusion" they were predisposed to arrive at, while simultaneously entirely igmoring long term facts and basic climatology.

The difference in snowfall between the two towns is a good 6 inches in an average year, i.e., Lyndhurst sees 125% of the snowfall Holmdel does.

William this could be true and so could isotherms point, but do you honestly think someone going from holmdel to lyndhurst is going to be sitting in there house in january and been saying "should have sprang for the bigger snowblower?"

[BlueSkiesFading]

yea its a bar, dont know how it is now but 15 years ago it was awesome. Just dont wear new shoes or sneakers in that place. you can never tell what you are stepping in lol

It changed ownership recently and I think is now called Pub 99. The new local hot spot is The Shannon Rose in Clifton, which is about 1 mile west of Lyndhurst.

[NJwinter23]

I'm just glad that my thread sparked some intellectual, if even to the point of ridiculousness, discussion. Of course, on a board like this, I should have known pitting two locales against one another would spark controversy.

The place I'm looking at renting is right off Ridge road. A few restaurants, delis, bakery, etc within walking distance.

Good luck man definitely a nice area and that train to the city is right there. My sister had ended their lease in the city because they thought they had that house in Lyndhurst, but when it fell through they had to endure a few month layover in Pittstown with the in-laws (way the hell out near the PA boarder). Talk about a ****ty commute to the city..They just moved into a nice appt in Jersey City after no luck in finding a house. Buyer's market my ass lol.

[gkrangers]

Good luck man definitely a nice area and that train to the city is right there. My sister had ended their lease in the city because they thought they had that house in Lyndhurst, but when it fell through they had to endure a few month layover in Pittstown with the in-laws (way the hell out near the PA boarder). Talk about a ****ty commute to the city..They just moved into a nice appt in Jersey City after no luck in finding a house. Buyer's market my ass lol.

Yup the train ride to Hoboken and NYC is a big plus and main reason for moving there. And maybe a few more slushy inches of snow!

[Isotherm]

No we haven't come to a "consensus". We have had a few people from the area analyze an extremely small sample of storms in conjunction with questionable anecdotal evidence to reach a "conclusion" they were predisposed to arrive at, while simultaneously entirely igmoring long term facts and basic climatology.

The difference in snowfall between the two towns is a good 6 inches in an average year, i.e., Lyndhurst sees 125% of the snowfall Holmdel does.

There's no reliable station of long-tracking snowfall in Monmouth county so you're final statement has no backing. And you don't seem to put much credence into accounts of people who have lived here their entire lives. So this conversation is going nowhere. Bottom line to this thread is Lyndhurst gets more snow on average but the difference between the two is certainly debatable.

One would think, with basic climatology, that all of Long Island receives less snow than NYC or NE NJ. But this is clearly false. There are parts of N LI that average 31-32", more than inland towns like Somerville and Newark. They're nearly surrounded by water, but the effects of miller b's and coastal enhancement help significantly. The only way we know this is through long tracking records.

[Isotherm]

The flaw in your argument is that it fails to mention the most important factor...northern Long Island is at a slightly higher latitude than NYC and parts of NE NJ...not by much, but some areas are even north of the 41st parallel. Thus there is a plausible factor beyond minor elevation increases, Sound enhancement, and suburban / rural vs urban. Monmouth County is south of the areas it is being compared to, which strikes a crushing blow against your contentions...

Yes, but LI has a major factor going against it -- water nearly surrounding them. The furthest one can go inland is about 10-11 miles on LI. That strong water influence is not much of an issue for Holmdel and NE NJ. While obviously Lyndhurst beats Holmdel in latitude, the ocean influence at both locales is similar. Basically my point is that a location nearly surrounded by water, even if slightly north in latitude, should receive less snow on average, not equal to or greater than (N LI vs Lyndhurst). But it doesn't. I don't think snowfall is as linear as you seem to see it as.

[Diego]

But the stats provided by the National Climatic Data Center below are virtually irrefutable and speak for themselves. Pursuant to them, Long Branch at Oakhurst only averaged 13.5," Freehold 18.4" and Newark 26.0," and the averages were based upon data derived over a suffiiciently long enough period (1971-2000), to result in a reasonably accurate sample. And the fact that the sampling period was during a period of snow drought would be irrelevant since all of these stations would have suffered equally.

Snowfall Long Branch.pdf

Snofall Freehold.pdf

Snowfall Newark.pdf

[green tube]

eastern long island is basically part of southern new england, with a bit of water in between.

[Isotherm]

You're sort of diverging from the topic (Lyndhurst v Holmdel) by going off on this tangent about L.I. Tom, I like you. You know a hell of a lot about general meteorology and are a terriffic asset to the board. We can argue this topic till where blue in the face - and I have neither the time nor the inclination for such banter. I posted my thoughts and reasoning as to why Lyndhurst is snowier than Holmdel and you chimed in with your dissenting views. I'll leave it to the readers to reach their own conclusions....

William, same to you and I have a lot of respect for your climatology knowledge. It's been an enjoyable discussion.

[Isotherm]

But the stats provided by the National Climatic Data Center below are virtually irrefutable and speak for themselves. Pursuant to them, Long Branch at Oakhurst only averaged 13.5," Freehold 18.4" and Newark 26.0," and the averages were based upon data derived over a suffiiciently long enough period (1971-2000), to result in a reasonably accurate sample. And the fact that the sampling period was during a period of snow drought would be irrelevant since all of these stations would have suffered equally.

This will be my last post on this topic (I promise), but those averages are definitely inaccurate, and this is what I meant by unreliable stations.

That Long Branch COOP station only has totals through 1983:

http://climate.rutgers.edu/stateclim_v1/monthlydata/tsnw/longbranch.html

And the Freehold COOP has a ton of missing data, almost every year:

http://climate.rutgers.edu/stateclim_v1/monthlydata/tsnw/freehold.html

Newark is the only one of those three w/ a good, long record with all data intact: Which is why its average is shown significantly higher

http://climate.rutgers.edu/stateclim_v1/monthlydata/tsnw/newark.html

[CooL]

I cant believe a 3 word topic went on to become a 5 page thread. You guys are great lol

[Absolute Humidity]

But the stats provided by the National Climatic Data Center below are virtually irrefutable and speak for themselves. Pursuant to them, Long Branch at Oakhurst only averaged 13.5," Freehold 18.4" and Newark 26.0," and the averages were based upon data derived over a suffiiciently long enough period (1971-2000), to result in a reasonably accurate sample. And the fact that the sampling period was during a period of snow drought would be irrelevant since all of these stations would have suffered equally.

So Freehold receives less snow than Philly? Lots of luck, were 40 50 miles north of Philly.

[Alpha5]

I cant believe a 3 word topic went on to become a 5 page thread. You guys are great lol

Who

Gets

More

Snow

[CooL]

Who

Gets

More

Snow

Actually, the topic is:

Holmdel

or

Lyndhurst

Thats what i meant but i guess you gotta be picky

[NJwinter23]

Yes, but LI has a major factor going against it -- water nearly surrounding them. The furthest one can go inland is about 10-11 miles on LI. That strong water influence is not much of an issue for Holmdel and NE NJ. While obviously Lyndhurst beats Holmdel in latitude, the ocean influence at both locales is similar. Basically my point is that a location nearly surrounded by water, even if slightly north in latitude, should receive less snow on average, not equal to or greater than (N LI vs Lyndhurst). But it doesn't. I don't think snowfall is as linear as you seem to see it as.

For all intents and purposes, we in Monmouth county are surrounded by water as well. At least for the wind directions that count (north or northeast) the flow is orgiinating off new england, but has to go over long island sound and raritan bay.. Long island is basically the same in that department. And se/east winds will usually kill all 3 locales. And since we arent getting snow in Monmouth county on southwest winds coming from the continent, I can't support your bolded statement against Long Island. It is usually storm track that will change long island over to rain in some cases when we stay snow because they jut out further east. Just as it is the jutting out to the east that will allow them to cash in on some storms that miss us to the east. The marine influence is really no different compared to Monmouth County, and they have the latitude advantage just as Lyndhurst does.

[Isotherm]

I cant believe a 3 word topic went on to become a 5 page thread. You guys are great lol

Well we try.

Just start a thread about Dulles Vs. NYC snowfall and that thread will take off 3X more than this one.

[Diego]

This will be my last post on this topic (I promise), but those averages are definitely inaccurate, and this is what I meant by unreliable stations.

That Long Branch COOP station only has totals through 1983:

http://climate.rutge...longbranch.html

And the Freehold COOP has a ton of missing data, almost every year:

http://climate.rutge...w/freehold.html

Newark is the only one of those three w/ a good, long record with all data intact: Which is why its average is shown significantly higher

http://climate.rutge...snw/newark.html

Good point Tom, I wasn't aware of these limitations, believing that the NCDC, which was my source, would have utilized data that was reasonably complete. Therefore, you could only use Newark's data. Nevertheless, I will stand behind my original arguments on this issue.

So Freehold receives less snow than Philly? Lots of luck, were 40 50 miles north of Philly.

See my response to Tom above.

[Absolute Humidity]

Good point Tom, I wasn't aware of these limitations, believing that the NCDC, which was my source, would have utilized data that was reasonably complete. Therefore, you could only use Newark's data. Nevertheless, I will stand behind my original arguments on this issue.

See my response to Tom above.

Thanks, the historical data for Freehold goes back some 80 yrs but it's woefully incomplete, frustrating because yes latitude likely wins this debate, but we still have no sure way to prove it. just same as if Tinley Park, receives more snow than Chicago, yet the town is some 20 miles south, but suffers a far less heat island effect.

[Absolute Humidity]

Looks like Lyndhurst may have won this round by a few inches if the 29" varifies as well as Holmdel's 25".

[green tube]

oh no. it's back!