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Feb. 8-12 Model Discussion Part III


beanskip

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it is certainly hard to ignore that most guidance is very light with qpf for eastern ga and the carolinas. this is a situation where 50 miles can make a huge difference west to east. if it can hold together just a little longer into ga, then e ga and the upstate may see some snow. if it weakens 50 miles to the west, most of us in n c ga to the east (except far east) carolinas will be screwed. its pathetic when we are hoping and gasping for a simple .10-.15" of qpf lol

lol Isn't that the truth but it's even funnier when you think about the fact we are all trying to nail down precip totals down to the hundredths of an inch. That's a pretty small target lol

This is one case where I'm a little happier (for the moment) that I'm south of you since the models have me closer to the better moisture with most guidance showing between 0.10 to 0.25 here. The exception being the rgem showing close to 0.40.

But this is one of those cases where you just don't know until it happens because a lot depends on mesoscale effects that the models can only generally pick up on but you won't really know until it materializes. People within these bands will be happy but 25 to 50 miles miles away it could be dry as you said. So although I'm supposed to be in a better spot right now, I could be screwed in any direction. I have a bad feeling that the best band will setup about 25 to 30 miles south of me and down toward i-20 since a lot of the models have been showing that. That would suck to be so close.

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Consider this... the RUC has pretty much no measurable snow falling a Bowling Green, KY until 5pm this evening... they have been getting moderate to heavy snow the last 2-3 hours and have already picked up .06" precip... and the 19z RUC only had them getting .074" total. Nashville is about to get slammed next!

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There is already a very thick mid level cloud deck with hints of some low level cloudiness. Indeed radar is already picking up virga out of these clouds.

I tell you I've seen some weird things happen here when there is a lee trough located ahead of the cold front. Usually more precip, rather than the opposite, so we'll see. I'm noticing the RH on the RUC is having problems, and not lining up with reality right now in Miss, Al, Tn area at all, but I haven't been following the simulated reflectivites on this. Its an intriguing setup and I'll follow it just for the sheer fun of learning and seeing how it evolves. Its similar to a cold frontal passage, but one thats got a much better tap than the models showed,a nd the interplay of the dynamics, with the jet overhead Tn. Valley and a still strong 5h vort coming into Arkansas as we speak, so I'm almost positive we're going to see some totals going up for Ala, GA, eastern TN and most of SC. The least certain spot for me is western NC, just east of the mountains.

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lol Isn't that the truth but it's even funnier when you think about the fact we are all trying to nail down precip totals down to the hundredths of an inch. That's a pretty small target lol

This is one case where I'm a little happier (for the moment) that I'm south of you since the models have me closer to the better moisture with most guidance showing between 0.10 to 0.25 here. The exception being the rgem showing close to 0.40.

But this is one of those cases where you just don't know until it happens because a lot depends on mesoscale effects that the models can only generally pick up on but you won't really know until it materializes. People within these bands will be happy but 25 to 50 miles miles away it could be dry as you said. So although I'm supposed to be in a better spot right now, I could be screwed in any direction. I have a bad feeling that the best band will setup about 25 to 30 miles south of me and down toward i-20 since a lot of the models have been showing that. That would suck to be so close.

i guess thats what makes it interesting (small variations)....sometimes we still wont know til its upon us. i am thinking that the heavier amounts are also probably going to be just south of mby....i just hope a lot of us can get at least an inch or two (giving a lot of n ga, at least, snow in all three winters months!)

it does suck to be so close and just miss out, and i am afraid thats going to be the case for some of us in the se tonight

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I have seen some impressive snows in the CLT area thanks to the Lee side disturbances. I think we had one storm in 2002 or 2003 which they were calling for 2" and we ended up with 8-10". Robert or someone can chime in and correct me on most of this. :arrowhead:

Yeah Jan 2003. Huge surprise, I wouldn't go there yet.LOL. But a couple times this year ahead of cold fronts there was a lee trough that spawned a meso low in Rutherford County that clipped part of the foothills with up to 2" of surprise snow. I always think its neat to watch unfold. Both were similar to this, but this is slightly different. One thing I've yet to see is a weakening trend on precip in Miss. like the models called for. In fact, looking at radars there it seems to be Increasing. I think most of the models are out of touch with reality on this one so far, but I'm not saying it won't be decaying but it sure is taking a while to do so as of yet.

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Consider this... the RUC has pretty much no measurable snow falling a Bowling Green, KY until 5pm this evening... they have been getting moderate to heavy snow the last 2-3 hours and have already picked up .06" precip... and the 19z RUC only had them getting .074" total. Nashville is about to get slammetd next!

Define slammed......since I happen to be in route to BNA....arriving at 6:30. I dont call 2 inches being slammed. You think more?

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Yeah Jan 2003. Huge surprise, I wouldn't go there yet.LOL. But a couple times this year ahead of cold fronts there was a lee trough that spawned a meso low in Rutherford County that clipped part of the foothills with up to 2" of surprise snow. I always think its neat to watch unfold. Both were similar to this, but this is slightly different. One thing I've yet to see is a weakening trend on precip in Miss. like the models called for. In fact, looking at radars there it seems to be Increasing. I think most of the models are out of touch with reality on this one so far, but I'm not saying it won't be decaying but it sure is taking a while to do so as of yet.

That is why you have the RED TAG my friend. I think all of this in my mind, but cannot relay it into words. Looking at the radar and seeing the heavy returns, with the lift taking place, then extrapolating this to our neck of the woods is giving me a warmer fuzzy that we may see more along the lines of 1-2" instead of a 1/2" or less. Tonight will be fun to track and learn regardless...

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Sounds like Ji is channeling through HKYwx..

I can't help it dude, i'm officially spoiled. I've seen like 45 inches since march of 2009. These 1 to 2 inchers are not as exciting. I'm sure mother nature is going strike us down with another 5 year period of winter hell now that i said that.

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I agree. To put this into perspective, the entire year's avg. snowfall for KATL is only 2" and the median is only 0.9" for the period 1930-2010.

Some recent years:

2001 0.1"

2002 4.6"

2003 Trace

2004 3.0"

2005 0.5"

2006 Trace

2007 0.1"

2008 1.4"

2009 4.2"

2010 6.8"

2011 4.4"+

You can see how much 2009-11 stick out. KATL has received 15.4" for those three years, combined, and 2011, of course, is far from over. Going back to 1880, the only other heavier S/IP three year periods were the 28.9" of 1893-5, the ~22" of 1884-6, the 19.3" of 1982-4, and the 15.9" of 1934-6. After 2009-11's 15.4"+ comes the 14.1" of 1991-3.

I'm astonished that each year has at least a trace. I've often though that 1 minute of sleet I see in Nov and nothing else for the rest of the winter didn't count for anything. Just points out how patchy snow/ip/z fall is in Ga. from Macon up. I really think we need you to make a push with one of the schools for an active archive of county specific spotter maps like Carolina has :) We have good schools like they do, just need a persuasive climo man such as yourself to help us get an invaluable tool in our quest for the perfect storm :) You have my vote!

Could you (or who ever reads this) look next time at the HRRR Vertically Intergrated Liquid map and tell me if the color streaming in across old Mexico is indicative of the clouds in the same region on vapor loop bringing juice to the party? The lift seems good in the Texas bend of the gulf, and the lifted condensation seem good over old Mexico...but, dang it, I'm color blind and all these danged maps are color coded and I have to intuit stuff. I'm asking if my understanding of those maps is that the clouds on the vapor loop in Mexico are bringing extra moisture? Earlier they looked to be coming late, but now it is looking better. Thanks, T

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RPM model shows what other models have been showing, but now the RUC is more bullish. Can't wait for this storm to be done with.

that is, well, i cant type what i am thinking and saying after seeing that

They might pick up 2" in the next 2 Hours... this is a potent band!

i would certainly qualify 2" in 2 hours as getting slammed :thumbsup:

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Phil is right, Nashville slammed!

http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/cctv/cctvnash/cam74.asp

wow, what i wouldnt give to see that here :devilsmiley: too bad this isnt scheduled to come in during the dawnish time...that way i could sleep and get up, rather than keep watching the radar waiting for the most likely inevitable weakening in the precip shield once it gets to n central ga.

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Check out the AFD from NWS-GSP. This snippet offers some logic to what we are seeing on the radar (will help a lot of people understand what is transpiring on the radar -myself included) and how they feel the QPF is underestimated by the Forecast models. They actually increased our totals up an inch or so. Burger will like this:

.NEAR TERM /THROUGH THURSDAY/...

-- Changed Discussion --NOT MUCH CHANGE TO THE FORECAST REASONING FROM THE LATE MORNING

UPDATE...AND NO CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE TO THE VALID TIME OR

ORIENTATION OF THE WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY. THE LATEST REGIONAL

RADAR AND SATELLITE LOOPS SHOW A MODESTLY WELL ORGANIZED BAROCLINIC

LEAF AND ASSOCIATED AREA OF PCPN EXTENDING FROM NRN LA TO SRN KY.

THIS LINES UP FAIRLY WELL WITH THE OPERATIONAL MODELS...THOUGH IT

DOES LOOK A LITTLE FASTER. OVERALL...I LIKE THE SREF MASS FIELDS AND

QPF FOR THE EVENT.

THE NAM IS PICKING UP BETTER ON THE H7 FRONTOGENESIS THAN THE GFS.

IT DID THE SAME THING BACK DURING THE HEAVY SNOW EVENT IN EARLY

JANUARY. SO WHILE I THINK IT/S QPF IS UNDERDONE...I LIKE IT/S

FORCING AS THERE ARE ACTIVE SNOWBANDS NOW ACROSS THE MIDDLE PART OF

AR AND WRN TN. IT BRINGS THIS FRONTOGENESIS...WHICH IS DEVELOPING

WITHIN THE ENTRANCE REGION OF A STRONG 250MB JET...INTO THE NC MTNS

A LITTLE AFTER 00 UTC...AND ACROSS THE FOOTHILLS AND PIEDMONT FROM

03-09 UTC. PCPN SHOULD THEN BE WELL EAST OF THE FA BY 12 UTC.

THE LLVL FLOW IS DOWNSLOPE AND DOWNGLIDE...SO WE WILL HAVE TO RELY

PRIMARILY ON MID LEVEL FORCING FOR THE EVENT. THE ONE EXCEPTION WILL

BE THE SW NC MTNS AND THE MTNS OF NE GA WHERE UPSLOPE FLOW SHOULD

AID THE SNOWFALL. I HAVE A LITTLE OVER TWO INCHES IN THESE AREAS. I

HAVE AROUND AN INCH ACROSS THE REST OF THE FA. WHILE THE BEST

FORCING WILL PASS ACROSS THE SRN PART OF THE FA LATER TONIGHT...THE

SREF PLUME DIAGRAMS ACTUALLY SHOW A LITTLE MORE SNOWFALL UP OVER THE

NC FOOTHILLS AND PIEDMONT AS THE PCPN WILL CHANGE OVER MORE QUICKLY

TO ALL SNOW THAN OVER THE UPSTATE AND NE GA. SNOW TO LIQUID RATIOS

WILL ALSO BE A LITTLE HIGHER. THAT/S WHY I END UP WITH SIMILAR

AMOUNTS ACROSS THE FA. IF A HEAVY ENOUGH SNOW BAND WHERE TO DEVELOP

UNDER THE BETTER FORCING...THEN TOTALS COULD BE AN INCH OR SO HIGHER

ALONG AND SOUTH OF INTERSTATE 85.

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Well I know it's useless but the 18z is slightly wetter for everyone minus the eastern sections it looks like.

Actually never mind looking at accum qpf it's drier for everyone. Sheesh.

Dude...the dynamics with this are looking better by the minute. I BET you will be pleasantly surprised come 3:00am this morning and on with an inch of snow on the ground (hopefully more). :snowman::weight_lift:

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Check out the AFD from NWS-GSP. This snippet offers some logic to what we are seeing on the radar (will help a lot of people understand what is transpiring on the radar -myself included) and how they feel the QPF is underestimated by the Forecast models. They actually increased our totals up an inch or so. Burger will like this:

StormTotalSnowFcst.png

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