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February 8-12 model Discussion II


Isopycnic

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I saw .10" here. Usually when its that, its virga and the trends can't be denied here. We actually get more qpf from tomorrows event than the Thurs. one I think, but I didn't calculate exactly. I won't be suprised to see it partly cloudy here Thursday actually with zilch.

Our amounts in KAVL actually went up in comparison to the 12z run of the Euro. Either way though, its only a minor event for most of North Carolina, and maybe just a little more impressive for SC and GA. While its not yet time to lose hope for a more significant solution, expecting a Christmas Day storm like comeback is not likely in the cards. Recent runs have really emphasized the power of the Polar Vortex, something that is common in La Nina's, which doesn't really allow any sort of phasing between the two jet streams, just suppression. Unfortunately, it looks like we have settled into a more La Nina like pattern the past few weeks across the southeast, and as much as I want to hope this thing is coming back north, the current pattern suggests otherwise. This is different from what we experienced during December and January, as we had a very -AO which tended to support a weak PV, one that could easily give way to southern stream shortwaves. However, with the current +AO regime, when the PV exerts its dominance, it likely will get its way.

However, it wouldn't take much of a tweak in the shortwave to allow more phasing and a solution that allows more precipitation. There is a very fine line between the Polar Vortex being too strong and suppressing everything, and then the Polar Vortex being too far north, and the storm comes inland and gives most of us rain. Threading the needle is very difficult to do in the southeast, and thats why we typically don't see major snowstorms. That is likely why we have gone from almost an inland solution to something that is nearly nothing in about two days time. However, keep in mind we are still 3-4 days out, and we could just as easily see a similar adjustment back in the next 2 days. The trend just needs to start now.

One sign of good news that I don't think many people saw here was the 00 GFS Ensembles. The mean precipitation actually increased in general from 18z to 00z. Just take a look at the individual 00z GFS Ensembles. Not one member is as weak as the 00z GFS. Normally ensembles are lower resolution models and shouldn't pick up on surface features as well as the operational run. Yet every member is deeper and more intense that the operational run, some even significantly so. Thus, its not time to lose hope quite yet, as the models could still trend back with ease this far out.

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It's almost a dick move to say for NC/TN/VA but this is the time of year that these storms tend to get SC/GA real good in areas that normally don't see much wintry. I will buy the low tracking really far South this time of year just because of this fact. Look at the past storms. Not saying this will be anything like them snow total wise, but feb 1973 and feb 2010 along with a few others come to mind.

edit: and if the month doesn't make sense climo wise, the date range should.

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NAM is coming in even wetter this run than the last for my area. :arrowhead:

Indeed... actually looks like quite an event across the Carolinas. The NAM highlights how just a small change in the 500mb field can have pretty major chances to the QPF output. The past three runs of the NAM have trended the 540dm contour at 500mb further south at the apex of the s/w. Thus, it makes sense that its showing higher QPF amounts, as its keeping a strong shortwave swinging through our region. Considering this, plus the fact that the GFS was all alone compared to the ensembles, and I think this winter storm threat is not dead by any means.

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GSP upped my pops to 70% and is sounding fairly bullish:

DEEP LIFT WILL EXPAND ACROSS THE CWA AS THE H5 TO H7

TROF RIPPLES ACROSS THE CWA BETWEEN 6Z TO 12Z...PROVIDING

THE BEST SNOWFALL RATES. I WILL INDICATE LIKELY POPS

DURING THE NIGHT...WITH PRECIP EXPECTED TO FALL AS PURE SNOW.

Well RAH has decided Ill see partly cloudy skies... :arrowhead:

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Indeed... actually looks like quite an event across the Carolinas. The NAM highlights how just a small change in the 500mb field can have pretty major chances to the QPF output. The past three runs of the NAM have trended the 540dm contour at 500mb further south at the apex of the s/w. Thus, it makes sense that its showing higher QPF amounts, as its keeping a strong shortwave swinging through our region. Considering this, plus the fact that the GFS was all alone compared to the ensembles, and I think this winter storm threat is not dead by any means.

The NAM would probably be a good 4-8 from about CLT to AVL to GSP if it had one more 6 hour panel you would think (who knows though?). The big question is going to be is the NAM simply out to lunch that far off? We will find out tonight when that s/w is actually sampled.

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just glancing at meteostar output it would appear that the 6z GFS is delaying the warm up next week. At the very least it is saying the warm is not going to be as much. I'm not sure if this is a product of our Thursday storm being being so far south or what.

6z also has the NAO tanking around the 17th

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6z ENS is wetter as well, albeit still a marginal event for most. Tonight and tomorrow will be the key days for the models to come into agreement.

And the NAM has .5" just to the north/northwest of ATL while the GFS OP run has literally nothing for here. It's going to be a fun couple days, haha.

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The models in general are consistent with 1-2 inches for NGA less in S NC and the jackpot is found in the north ATL burbs around 3 inches. The only CONSISTENCY the models have shown this winter is how CONFUSED they are with this storm and every storm since NOV-DEC. The QPF is the problem with this storm. This storm will double QPF amounts currently shown at this time by the 4-5 models most track. So I am expecting to see as of NOW around 3-5 for roughly ATL -NGA 2-4 S NC. Could easily see totals an inch or two higher than this. We shall see.:snowwindow:

OK not one response to correct my view nor a single response to agree. "COME ON MAN"! I totally feel the post above is spot on. Challenge my theory and explain why your right and i am wrong. Way to many here are spoiled little whiney brat's due to the above norm snowfalls last two years. Reality check might help :weenie: :weenie: plural

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And the NAM has .5" just to the north/northwest of ATL while the GFS OP run has literally nothing for here. It's going to be a fun couple days, haha.

Agreed. It looks to me like the 6Z nam has ~4-4.5" of snow for the N ATL burbs to AHN and then a sharp decline to almost no accumulating snow near the ATL airport due to too warm 850's.

This suggests that there is very little room to play with as far as too north track/too warm vs. stronger low and more mositure.

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OK not one response to correct my view nor a single response to agree. "COME ON MAN"! I totally feel the post above is spot on. Challenge my theory and explain why your right and i am wrong. Way to many here are spoiled little whiney brat's due to the above norm snowfalls last two years. Reality check might help :weenie: :weenie: plural

Ok, I'll bite. You could be right, or you could be wrong. The problem with your theory is that you are relying on past model trends from previous storms this year. That means your forecast reasoning is based on modelology and not meteorology. Show me, meteorologicaly, why it's going to be wetter.

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OK not one response to correct my view nor a single response to agree. "COME ON MAN"! I totally feel the post above is spot on. Challenge my theory and explain why your right and i am wrong. Way to many here are spoiled little whiney brat's due to the above norm snowfalls last two years. Reality check might help :weenie: :weenie: plural

lol wut? Just because no one responds it doesn't mean they didn't read it. We are all just in stand by mode. In fact I think most have been echoing what you've been saying. A wetter NW trend.

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OK not one response to correct my view nor a single response to agree. "COME ON MAN"! I totally feel the post above is spot on. Challenge my theory and explain why your right and i am wrong. Way to many here are spoiled little whiney brat's due to the above norm snowfalls last two years. Reality check might help :weenie: :weenie: plural

No need to get all worked up! Personally I don't see where you're getting that qpf should double. Ok the gfs may be too dry, by you can't just disregard the rest of the models and wishcast higher amounts.

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I know, JB said,

it will be a major event from Texas to the coastal Carolinas :whistle:

You should do fine with this, But not up here......

If I had a dollar for everytime you've said that this year and ended up with more snow than me... I'd have $3. arrowheadsmiley.pngthumbsupsmileyanim.gif

06z GFS ensemble mean is now wetter than before with most members still pointing to a significant snow event for the SE. :snowman:

thumbsupsmileyanim.gifthumbsupsmileyanim.gifthumbsupsmileyanim.gif

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If I'm not mistaken, the shortwave we're interested in is just now entering the continent. Right now the general track trend is good, cold air appears to be good, we'll see how the QPF plays out. When you're talking about snow, a few 1/10's of precip makes a big difference and that's still up in the air. And, if last storms are any indication, it's always a NOWCast event when it comes right down to it anyway. It's rarely ever in concrete for us.

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If I'm not mistaken, the shortwave we're interested in is just now entering the continent. Right now the general track trend is good, cold air appears to be good, we'll see how the QPF plays out. When you're talking about snow, a few 1/10's of precip makes a big difference and that's still up in the air. And, if last storms are any indication, it's always a NOWCast event when it comes right down to it anyway. It's rarely ever in concrete for us.

Yep as Brandon mentioned tonight's and tomorrow afternoon runs are going to probably get the best handle on it. Of course we all want to buy into the NAM and if it's correct someone is going to win big.

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OK not one response to correct my view nor a single response to agree. "COME ON MAN"! I totally feel the post above is spot on. Challenge my theory and explain why your right and i am wrong. Way to many here are spoiled little whiney brat's due to the above norm snowfalls last two years. Reality check might help :weenie: :weenie: plural

I'll agree on the consistency part but the QPF double part is a wait and see.

Now with our big January storm we were dealing with a similar situation where we had a shortwave moving from TX to the SE and was progged to get sheared out along the way. The models trended drier as we got within the 3 day period and if my memory serves me correctly the EURO almost lost the storm in this time frame. Also if I remember correctly the NAM was the first to ramp up the QPF and the GFS followed within 24 hours. Typically the NAM is a "follower" and not a "leader". I'm not saying this will happen again but there are similarities. The big key difference with the NAM is that it keeps our southern shortwave more separated from the PV way up north which allows it to stay stronger longer. That is what we need to happen obviously.

Now the 12z NAM is fixing to roll so we shall see if the NAM holds serve but history says the NAM will be a follower.

Now the good thing for MBY is that I'm in the jackpot for QPF for GA with both the 6z NAM and the 6z GFS....well at least no one in GA gets more QPF than me with the 6z GFS which is ZIP. LOL

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