I need a 'second'' for my motion that the PSUHoffman Storm be deemed a "HECS".

[Fozz]

There's a complete difference between a Historic East Coast Snowstorm and Historic IMBY Snowstorm. You simply can't say you have a HECS "around here." No such thing. You can have a historic storm for Baltimore or DC or MoCo or whatever proper, but it's not gonna be a HECS even if you got 30" if nobody else got diddly.

There's no need to delve into that argument.

[Yeoman]

This is not historical by any means, regardless of some inflated total a weenie measured in their back yard.

[TowsonWeather]

13-15" is not a HECS in central MD, and should not be in the same category as storms that bring 25-30".

Look at Baltimore's top 10 snowstorms.......not a single storm in the top 10 had less than 18".

Here is a list of the Top 20 Baltimore snow storms:

1. Feb. 15-18, 2003: 28.2 inches

2. Jan. 27-29, 1922: 26.5 inches

3. Feb. 5-6, 2010: 24.8 inches*

4. Feb. 11, 1983: 22.8 inches

5. Jan. 7-8, 1996: 22.5 inches

6. Mar. 29-30, 1942: 22.0 inches

7. Feb. 11-14, 1899: 21.4 inches

8. Dec. 18-19, 2009: 21.1 inches

9. Feb. 18-19, 1979: 20.0 inches

10. Feb. 9-10, 2010: 19.5 inches

11. Mar. 15-18, 1892: 16.0 inches

12. Feb. 15, 1958: 15.5 inches

13. Jan. 25, 2000: 14.9 inches

14. Dec. 11-12, 1960: 14.1 inches

15. Feb. 11-12, 2006: 13.1 inches

16. Mar. 5-7, 1962: 13.0 inches

17: Jan. 22, 1987: 12.3 inches

18. Jan. 30-31, 1966: 12.1 inches

19. Feb. 16-18, 1900: 12.0 inches

20. Mar. 13-14, 1993: 11.9 inches

A 15-inch storm (in this hypothetical example) would be Baltimore's 13th biggest snow storm EVER.

That doesn't qualify as historic? Come on...

Ian - I agree with you that the distinctions are made-up and arbitrary and the whole discussion is silly, but the notion that a 15-inch storm would not be considered "historic" is sort of silly imo.

[TowsonWeather]

Haha chill out bud it's cool. I'm not talking to you, just making a general argument. If I was, I would have made this a reply, rather than a standalone post. Sensitive much?

Hehe - sorry if I was snappish. Just felt like despite my many disclaimers people were just seeing the word "HECS" and disregarding what I actually wrote. And I was a little annoyed by the rude and inaccurate suggestion by another poster that I "learn my climo" .

[Fozz]

A 15-inch storm (in this hypothetical example) would be Baltimore's 13th biggest snow storm EVER.

That doesn't qualify as historic? Come on...

No, it wouldn't. By your logic, a 13" storm in Chicago would be historic since their #10 storm had 14".

Now THAT is silly.

[Fozz]

Hehe - sorry if I was snappish. Just felt like despite my many disclaimers people were just seeing the word "HECS" and disregarding what I actually wrote. And I was a little annoyed by the rude and inaccurate suggestion by another poster that I "learn my climo" .

If this was North Carolina then 13-15" would definitely be historic without question, but we get these storms too often for them to be a HECS. That's what I meant by "learn your climo".

[SerialDerecho]

MECS...sure.

HECS....no. It did a massive foobar on traffic, and for that it will be most remembered. But no way this compares to 1993, 1996, 2003, 2010, etc

[clskinsfan]

Here is a list of the Top 20 Baltimore snow storms:

1. Feb. 15-18, 2003: 28.2 inches

2. Jan. 27-29, 1922: 26.5 inches

3. Feb. 5-6, 2010: 24.8 inches*

4. Feb. 11, 1983: 22.8 inches

5. Jan. 7-8, 1996: 22.5 inches

6. Mar. 29-30, 1942: 22.0 inches

7. Feb. 11-14, 1899: 21.4 inches

8. Dec. 18-19, 2009: 21.1 inches

9. Feb. 18-19, 1979: 20.0 inches

10. Feb. 9-10, 2010: 19.5 inches

11. Mar. 15-18, 1892: 16.0 inches

12. Feb. 15, 1958: 15.5 inches

13. Jan. 25, 2000: 14.9 inches

14. Dec. 11-12, 1960: 14.1 inches

15. Feb. 11-12, 2006: 13.1 inches

16. Mar. 5-7, 1962: 13.0 inches

17: Jan. 22, 1987: 12.3 inches

18. Jan. 30-31, 1966: 12.1 inches

19. Feb. 16-18, 1900: 12.0 inches

20. Mar. 13-14, 1993: 11.9 inches

A 15-inch storm (in this hypothetical example) would be Baltimore's 13th biggest snow storm EVER.

That doesn't qualify as historic? Come on...

Ian - I agree with you that the distinctions are made-up and arbitrary and the whole discussion is silly, but the notion that a 15-inch storm would not be considered "historic" is sort of silly imo.

What I find interesting on that list is that 6 of the 15 biggest storms in Baltimore's history happened in the last 10 years. We are living in the golden age of Nor'easters.

[TowsonWeather]

No, it wouldn't. By your logic, a 13" storm in Chicago would be historic since their #10 storm had 14".

Now THAT is silly.

So in your version of History, anything outside of the Top 10 doesn't count?

Talk about silly - lol.

Look bud, if you want to be arbitrary and decide in your own mind that something has to be "Top 10 or it doesn't "count" as historic, knock yourself out. But don't sneer at the outlandish suggestion that something that has only happened 12 other times in all of recorded history isn't a "historic" event.

[TowsonWeather]

If this was North Carolina then 13-15" would definitely be historic without question, but we get these storms too often for them to be a HECS. That's what I meant by "learn your climo".

As I mentioned above - we get them so often that a 15-inch storm has only been recorded in Baltimore 12 other times in all of recorded history.

That seem "often" to you?

Even if you want to debate the point - it's certainly not worth being snide and telling someone to "learn your climo".

[Fozz]

So in your version of History, anything outside of the Top 10 doesn't count?

Talk about silly - lol.

Look bud, if you want to be arbitrary and decide in your own mind that something has to be "Top 10 or it doesn't "count" as historic, knock yourself out. But don't sneer at the outlandish suggestion that something that has only happend 12 other times in all of recorded history isn't a "historic" event.

In my mind, a storm has to be comparable in scale to Jan 1996, PDII, Feb 1983 or Feb 2010 to be a HECS.

When I think historic in terms of weather, I think of maybe 3-4 times per century, something that really stands out. A storm that ranks #15 in 130 years of records certainly is major, but dilutes the meaning of "historic".

[TowsonWeather]

What I find interesting on that list is that 6 of the 15 biggest storms in Baltimore's history happened in the last 10 years. We are living in the golden age of Nor'easters.

The article I got that list from points out that the NWS is actually going to be revising many of those totals DOWN - as they feel like some were inflated as a result of multi-day storms and other factors.

Interesting Read: http://weblogs.marylandweather.com/2010/03/three_big_snowstorms_all_ranke.html

I'd be curious to see what the new list looks like.

[Fozz]

As I mentioned above - we get them so often that a 15-inch storm has only been recorded in Baltimore 12 other times in all of recorded history.

That seem "often" to you?

Even if you want to debate the point - it's certainly not worth being snide and telling someone to "learn your climo".

I apologize if I sounded rude by telling you to learn your climo.

But I hope you realize that you average more snow than BWI and will often see a 13-15" storm when I-95 gets less. There are many examples of storms that bring such totals to the northern suburbs, but not the airport.

[TowsonWeather]

In my mind, a storm has to be comparable in scale to Jan 1996, PDII, Feb 1983 or Feb 2010 to be a HECS.

When I think historic in terms of weather, I think of maybe 3-4 times per century, something that really stands out. A storm that ranks #15 in 130 years of records certainly is major, but dilutes the meaning of "historic".

That's fine, man - as Ian pointed out, it's all arbitrary and made-up anyway. If something has to be one of just 3 or 4 events to be considered "historic" to you, then more power to you - that's a totally legit and defendable position.

I just don't think you should be mocking people whose definition encompasses Top 10 or Top 15 or whatever marginally broader definition THEYmay have for historic and suggesting that they don't know what they are talking about is all.

[WxUSAF]

This one certainly is an option for KU's next book, if and when they do another. But it's not a "historic" storm as I'd define it. The whole SECS/MECS/HECS thing is DT's invention and then weenies have co-opted it and molded the definitions as they see fit.

It was a great storm, and probably will be the best one this year for us. It'll get a NESIS rating, but probably a fairly low one.

[TowsonWeather]

I apologize if I sounded rude by telling you to learn your climo.

But I hope you realize that you average more snow than BWI and will often see a 13-15" storm when I-95 gets less. There are many examples of storms that bring such totals to the northern suburbs, but not the airport.

Totally. I actually live inside the beltway and just 5 minutes from I-95, so its not like I am up in Westminster or something, but I take your point.

Growing up I lived in Columbia and Severna Park, so I have experienced some of the ups and downs of central MD snow micro-climates.

[TowsonWeather]

Just to continue the discussion, I found the new NWS breakdown of area storm rankings (adjusted and broken down into to 1-, 2-, and 3-day rankings).

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/lwx/winter/storm-pr.htm#TopDaySnowfall

Fun stuff.

Also, FWIW, the 8th, 9th and 10th biggest 1-day storm totals in Baltimore history are all less than 16 inches. Just sayin' ;-)

[Fozz]

Just to continue the discussion, I found the new NWS breakdown of area storm rankings (adjusted and broken down into to 1-, 2-, and 3-day rankings).

http://www.erh.noaa....#TopDaySnowfall

Fun stuff.

Also, FWIW, the 8th, 9th and 10th biggest 1-day storm totals in Baltimore history are all less than 16 inches. Just sayin' ;-)

I hate how it is now broken down that way. Now the final ULL from PDII doesn't count in the total, and yet a clipper that happened right after January 1996 counts in that storm's total.

[TowsonWeather]

I hate how it is now broken down that way. Now the final ULL from PDII doesn't count in the total, and yet a clipper that happened right after January 1996 counts in that storm's total.

Yeah, I agree - think those breakdowns are interesting to READ, but I prefer the raw totals too.

If a 2-day or 3-day storm hits you with a ton of snow, that should count MORE, not less when considering where it "ranks".

[FrederickWX]

This one certainly is an option for KU's next book, if and when they do another. But it's not a "historic" storm as I'd define it. The whole SECS/MECS/HECS thing is DT's invention and then weenies have co-opted it and molded the definitions as they see fit.

It was a great storm, and probably will be the best one this year for us. It'll get a NESIS rating, but probably a fairly low one.

Agreed.

[thesnowsknows]

MECS in my book. It's all about context. Not uncommon to see double digits in the 'burbs while the cities are stuck around 4-8 inches, but the context of this storm was different. The intensity and rapidity with which it fell and the time frame in which it fell make it more than SECS for me. I'm sorry but a foot of snow is hard to come by, even in my area. Last year was an anomaly. Green lightening and liquid equivalents over 1.5 in a 6 hour period is a definite MECS in my book. Not to mention this also killed in Philly and New York, more so than predicted.

But not a HECS. '93 Superstorm, Jan '96, PDII, Snowmaggedon, Snowpacolypse, even Snoverkill, all HECS, but not this one. Just didn't have that X factor. Expand what happened over six hours last night into a twelve hour event, for sure you have a HECS, but just not enough on this one. But undoubtedly a memorable storm and extremely unique in its own right.

[AdamHLG]

Learn your climo. A HECS is 18"+ if you live around Baltimore.

Says who?

And it's not just based on snow depth in my opinion. This was a massive storm and a major rush hour impact.

If it snowed 30 dry powdery no wind inches on a sat night that was cleared by noon the next day, does that get a HECS? Th

[Fozz]

Says who?

And it's not just based on snow depth in my opinion. This was a massive storm and a major rush hour impact.

If it snowed 30 dry powdery no wind inches on a sat night that was cleared by noon the next day, does that get a HECS? Th

November 1987 brought a foot of snow to DC, also with a lot of thundersnow, and stranded people in their cars overnight.

But nobody calls it a HECS.

[AdamHLG]

I still say the 5 hours of 2"/HR rates coupled with the wind...and the sheer power with the lightning... will make this historical because people will never forget it. The rush hour impact just made it that much more memorable.

But Fozz I do see your point.

[North Balti Zen]

Yeah again, it actually does compare to the second February storm for some of us.

I can't speak for everyone of course, and I'm not suggesting that it should make any kind of list or get any kind of official "HECS" label - just saying that comparisons to other historic storms are not outlandish.

13 inches of soaking wet heavy snow - most of it in a blinding 5-hour period accompanied by howling winds, thunder and lightning? That's a really big deal anywhere in Central MD.

Come on now, WHAT howling winds. It was windy, but it was NOTHING like the second Feb storm last year, which was a true blizzard. This wasn't remotely in that class of storm. Not that it was a bad storm, but, let's be real. And there is no way you got 13 inches from just last night's snow. Maybe 10, I guess. But I am just over from you, and measured 7.5 from last night's event, only adding in the morning total do I get to 11. It's okay, not every storm is historic. But it was fun.

[psuhoffman]

this is kinda silly, everyone has a different subjective method to determine significance, and each location gets a different result. It makes this really impossible. If it was enough snow to make you happy, then how it is "rated" should not matter.

[Ji]

storm was not close to being a HECS. What if it had started at 1:00am in the morning and ended at 8:30am. Would of been a nice snowstorm only

[Terpeast]

I hate how it is now broken down that way. Now the final ULL from PDII doesn't count in the total, and yet a clipper that happened right after January 1996 counts in that storm's total.

Actually, the 26.6" BWI total is from the Jan 1996 storm alone. Recall that the snow started prior to midnight on the 6th. The clipper after the blizzard is not part of the BWI total of 26.6".

[gymengineer]

Actually, the 26.6" BWI total is from the Jan 1996 storm alone. Recall that the snow started prior to midnight on the 6th. The clipper after the blizzard is not part of the BWI total of 26.6".

No, Fozz is actually right. Total for the blizzard: 22.5". Total for the clipper: 4.1"

The blizzard didn't start accumulating before midnight at BWI, but it did at IAD and DCA.

1/06: T

1/07: 15.8"

1/08: 6.7"

1/09: 4.1"

[Terpeast]

No, Fozz is actually right. Total for the blizzard: 22.5". Total for the clipper: 4.1"

The blizzard didn't start accumulating before midnight at BWI, but it did at IAD and DCA.

1/06: T

1/07: 15.8"

1/08: 6.7"

1/09: 4.1"

Hmm, I thought the clipper happened on the 10th, not the 9th. But I might be wrong.. my memory might not be what it used to be, lol