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NYC/PHL Jan 25-27 Potential Bomb Part 5


earthlight

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The 12Z runs would indicate this has 12/03 type potential as far as what happened on the first day of the event...everyone thought it would be a rain-snow transition...looking at this event I see no reason why it may not surprise people again by being mostly snow now....I think the models may be a bit generous with the mid-level warming and its close anyway....the surface doesn't look to be an issue, the GFS MOS shows 37/29 over JFK at 18Z but thats with a 030 wind.

goose- 18Z weds? Prior to the onset of precip (or just as precip is arriving)?

looks like there is a warm nose, nothing gets above 1.5, from 900-750mb...this is at 60 hrs according to GFS soundings (JFK)

LGA is slightly colder...nothing above .8C

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The 12Z runs would indicate this has 12/03 type potential as far as what happened on the first day of the event...everyone thought it would be a rain-snow transition...looking at this event I see no reason why it may not surprise people again by being mostly snow now....I think the models may be a bit generous with the mid-level warming and its close anyway....the surface doesn't look to be an issue, the GFS MOS shows 37/29 over JFK at 18Z but thats with a 030 wind.

Interesting take SG. If our 850s do not go over 0 which they didnt in the 2003 event, perhaps you have a point there. I remember being very confused with that event. Looked like rain a little further out, early December, then I woke up to a temp of 36º that morning. I didn't pay attention to the dew point though and I figured we were probably cooked. What a great day that turned out to be though.

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The 12Z runs would indicate this has 12/03 type potential as far as what happened on the first day of the event...everyone thought it would be a rain-snow transition...looking at this event I see no reason why it may not surprise people again by being mostly snow now....I think the models may be a bit generous with the mid-level warming and its close anyway....the surface doesn't look to be an issue, the GFS MOS shows 37/29 over JFK at 18Z but thats with a 030 wind.

Just curious... but when do you recall the last time that the models were overdoing midlevel warming? That's the opposite of their usual bias...

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Interesting take SG. If our 850s do not go over 0 which they didnt in the 2003 event, perhaps you have a point there. I remember being very confused with that event. Looked like rain a little further out, early December, then I woke up to a temp of 36º that morning. I didn't pay attention to the dew point though and I figured we were probably cooked. What a great day that turned out to be though.

Even if a warm nose sticks through 60-62 hours I have a feeling there could be a period of sleet...again though as someone else said that is quite uncharacteristic of how these storms usually evolve, its usually a quick rain to snow transition...the dew points advected down from the CT Valley where it was cold and clear the night before, the same sort of thing could happen with this event if you check the data in CT and MA for temps/dps during the morning.

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Interesting take SG. If our 850s do not go over 0 which they didnt in the 2003 event, perhaps you have a point there. I remember being very confused with that event. Looked like rain a little further out, early December, then I woke up to a temp of 36º that morning. I didn't pay attention to the dew point though and I figured we were probably cooked. What a great day that turned out to be though.

http://nws.met.psu.edu/severe/2003/5-6Dec2003.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2003_nor%27easter

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Just curious... but when do you recall the last time that the models were overdoing midlevel warming? That's the opposite of their usual bias...

They tend to overdo it from my experience in non-WAA type setups, this would classify as that since its a cold sector issue of 850s being above 0C and not being in a SW to NE flow ay 850mb when WAA is normally underdone.

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Even if a warm nose sticks through 60-62 hours I have a feeling there could be a period of sleet...again though as someone else said that is quite uncharacteristic of how these storms usually evolve, its usually a quick rain to snow transition...the dew points advected down from the CT Valley where it was cold and clear the night before, the same sort of thing could happen with this event if you check the data in CT and MA for temps/dps during the morning.

Cool thanks for bringing this up. Anyhow, it does appear the 2003 storm did have a HP present in eastern Canada though that probably helped out big time.

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does the euro still show the big bomber next week that DT has been gushing about??

Its agreeing with the GEM on being more south with the weekend clipper than the GFS is though the GFS did seem to trend south from previous runs...I don't know if I believe it since those types of systems will usually go or are favored to go north of the area.

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They tend to overdo it from my experience in non-WAA type setups, this would classify as that since its a cold sector issue of 850s being above 0C and not being in a SW to NE flow ay 850mb when WAA is normally underdone.

How is it not a WAA situation? Winds during the first portion of the storm E to SE at 850... looks like WAA to me.

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Just curious... but when do you recall the last time that the models were overdoing midlevel warming? That's the opposite of their usual bias...

It was posted yesterday with graphs but the EURO has had a bias with warming recently, and the GFS (and this part is confusingm in teh longer range has shown a cold bias, but within 48 hrs it to has had a warm bias.

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How is it not a WAA situation? Winds during the first portion of the storm E to SE at 850... looks like WAA to me.

To an extent the high is still pulling a screw job at 54 hours....without the high to the east the flow around the east side of the storm would not be so violently strong out of the SE and less warm air would likely be pulled in at the mid-levels....I probably shouldn't have phrased it as WAA but stated more that SW to NE flow events is usually where the models underdo the warmth and much less so in a case like this where its more a typical warm air wrapping around the east side of the system.

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It was posted yesterday with graphs but the EURO has had a bias with warming recently, and the GFS (and this part is confusingm in teh longer range has shown a cold bias, but within 48 hrs it to has had a warm bias.

Tell the folks in S Jersey and PHL metro that... the ones who ended up changing over on Thursday night :whistle:

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Looking at FRG and ISP on AccuWx Euro text output, hard interpolating between six hour points, but the Euro solution based on surface and 850 mb temps, maybe a little snow at the end, but almost entirely rain Eastern Nassau/Suffolk. I suspect little or no accumulation.

On the other hand, ballpark 3ºC, 37ºF warmest 2 meter temp, may not lose a whole lot of existing snowpack. Total QPF a bit over an inch, and agains, it looks mostly rain.

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Looking at FRG and ISP on AccuWx Euro text output, hard interpolating between six hour points, but the Euro solution based on surface and 850 mb temps, maybe a little snow at the end, but almost entirely rain Eastern Nassau/Suffolk. I suspect little or no accumulation.

On the other hand, ballpark 3ºC, 37ºF warmest 2 meter temp, may not lose a whole lot of existing snowpack. Total QPF a bit over an inch, and agains, it looks mostly rain.

I doubt the surface or boundary layer is a problem for Long Island in this event, my guess is the trouble could come if some stubborn layer stays .5 or .7 above freezing at 870mb and causes tons of sleet....I just don't buy issues in the BL given it likely will be clouded over early in the morning, the wind flow is NE and there may be an ample period of radiational cooling early the night before.....this is an event where LGA could snow for 8 hours and JFK for 4 due to sleet issues.

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