NYC/Tri-State Area OBS and Disco

[Dsnowx53]

Here's your LGA sensor location lol

Ridiculous!!

[earthlight]

Didn't feel like making an entire thread for the SREF's, but some of these 15z SREF's are really awesome..specifically ARW 1, ARW 2, ARW 3, RSM 1, RSM 2, RSM 4, and RSM 5. The ARW members mentioned have the shortwave almost as strong as yesterdays 12z ECMWF. That is a very robust Miller B signal there.

[NorthShoreWx]

Or it could be they are taking temps on the tarmac?

http://jonova.s3.ama...-corruption.pdf

http://www.surfacestations.org/

I'd put that under the category of an equipment change of some sort, including if they moved the sensor.

Thanks for the links...good stuff. What a cluster that Urbana, OH site is. I have my sensor in an inappropriate site, but not nearly that bad, and on a typical spring -summer sunny day my afternoon temp reads 6 - 8 degrees too high. Thats why you never see me mentioning my high temperatures here...I know the numbers are useless unless its cloudy and windy. Apparently there is even worse stuff that gets passed off as "official" in a few locations. I'm not saying that LGA is one of those, but the greater positive departures from normals compared to the rest of the region there are disconcerting.

If I ever get motivated for the large capital purchase, I'll get a good wireless sensing unit and put the sensor in a better place than out the window over a garage roof. Who knows, maybe my nighttime temps are little high too

[Alpha5]

Here's your LGA sensor location lol

Thats a joke, how stupid do people have to be to put the thing there........oh wait Global Warming

[NorthShoreWx]

Here's your LGA sensor location lol

Thats not nearly as as bad as I was expecting, but it might explain the difference on radiational cooling nights, There's a warm body of water just a few feet away. With light winds, a block or two can make a legitimate difference.

We've seen the same on LI in the past at the Setauket / Strongs Neck coop, and and more recently at Centerport. The temperatures aren't wrong; they are just in a place that doesn't radiate well. Centerport is interesting because they will often have the highest minimums but then the lowest maximums on winter days.

It's easy to imagine some additional daytime heating from the LGA tarmac sometimes affecting the sensor, but again, its not as bad as I was expecting and there are no buildings nearby.

Does anyone have a similar arial photo of the KFK sensor? They have a lot more room to hide a temperature sensor away from pavement there (and they have always...as in for decades... been the only obs station in NYC that seems to be able cool off on clear calm nights).

[NorthShoreWx]

Place looks the same as when I (mis)spent my youth up there. Haven't been up there since the Dec 30, 2000 event - measured around 14 inches at the top the day after.

Maybe the location for an AmWx LI getogether? That or a brew pub

[SnoSki14]

Lol.

I'm generally referring to places like LGA where the UHI effect is only increasing over time because the highs haven't changed that much over the past 30 years, but the lows certainly have.

[NorthShoreWx]

I'm generally referring to places like LGA where the UHI effect is only increasing over time because the highs haven't changed that much over the past 30 years, but the lows certainly have.

LGA is decidely on the high side of the highs too. I'm not sure whether they have changed in the past 30 years more or less than anyone else.

[snowman21]

NWS should not allow the official readings to be taken there. Its a simple thing to change.

What most people seem to forget is that the main point of ASOS is for air traffic safety and not keeping climate records. It's not a coincidence the ASOSes are located right next to the tarmac. The NWS does not completely own ASOS or have complete control over it as it's an FAA/NWS/DOD joint program. It's convenient to use its data since it records the weather every minute of every day of the year and can observe things humans cannot. From the NWS perspective "it's good enough." Forgetting about the temperature record and weather stations for a second, one cannot completely disregard the environmental, ecological, etc. signs of global warming.

[snowman21]

I'm starting to think we will never register a below normal month, at least not based on the normals of the past 50 or so years, we may have to narrow things down to the last 15-20 years for normals because our temperatures are much higher than they were 30+ years ago.

Normals are based on 30 year periods. In several months from now, we'll have a new set of normals for the 1981-2010 period. Despite the new computation method this go around, I don't think we'll see much change. A few days ago I posted the normals for EWR, NYC, LGA, and JFK for the four normals periods starting in 1941. The largest uptick in the normal lows was a degree over the last half century, so I'm thinking we'll see a similar change (which won't be much) with the new normals. By the way this pattern is similar at other non-NYC stations as well - not a whole lot of change in normals over the years.

[Sundog]

Thats not nearly as as bad as I was expecting, but it might explain the difference on radiational cooling nights, There's a warm body of water just a few feet away. With light winds, a block or two can make a legitimate difference.

We've seen the same on LI in the past at the Setauket / Strongs Neck coop, and and more recently at Centerport. The temperatures aren't wrong; they are just in a place that doesn't radiate well. Centerport is interesting because they will often have the highest minimums but then the lowest maximums on winter days.

It's easy to imagine some additional daytime heating from the LGA tarmac sometimes affecting the sensor, but again, its not as bad as I was expecting and there are no buildings nearby.

Does anyone have a similar arial photo of the KFK sensor? They have a lot more room to hide a temperature sensor away from pavement there (and they have always...as in for decades... been the only obs station in NYC that seems to be able cool off on clear calm nights).

Here it is:

[Sundog]

Here's a wider shot:

[uncle W]

Normals are based on 30 year periods. In several months from now, we'll have a new set of normals for the 1981-2010 period. Despite the new computation method this go around, I don't think we'll see much change. A few days ago I posted the normals for EWR, NYC, LGA, and JFK for the four normals periods starting in 1941. The largest uptick in the normal lows was a degree over the last half century, so I'm thinking we'll see a similar change (which won't be much) with the new normals. By the way this pattern is similar at other non-NYC stations as well - not a whole lot of change in normals over the years.

December average temperature since 1870 for 30 year periods...Central Park

30 yr period.....ave temp...

1870-1899..........34.1

1880-1909..........34.8

1890-1919..........34.9

1900-1929..........34.8

1910-1939..........35.2

1920-1949..........35.6

1930-1959..........36.0

1940-1969..........35.7

1950-1979..........36.3

1960-1989..........36.3

1970-1999..........37.8

1980-2009..........37.9

These periods don't start with the year one but is a good barometer for showing the 30 year normal differences...There is a significant rise in Decembers average temperature over the last 30 years...

[earthlight]

Nothing beats KEWR..right between the main runway and the New Jersey Turnpike

[Analog96]

Nothing beats KEWR..right between the main runway and the New Jersey Turnpike

Their obs have been reasonably accurate in the last 15 years.

[snowman21]

December average temperature since 1870 for 30 year periods...Central Park

30 yr period.....ave temp...

1870-1899..........34.1

1880-1909..........34.8

1890-1919..........34.9

1900-1929..........34.8

1910-1939..........35.2

1920-1949..........35.6

1930-1959..........36.0

1940-1969..........35.7

1950-1979..........36.3

1960-1989..........36.3

1970-1999..........37.8

1980-2009..........37.9

These periods don't start with the year one but is a good barometer for showing the 30 year normal differences...There is a significant rise in Decembers average temperature over the last 30 years...

Yep, but not enough to really skew normals as most would assume. For example, NYC's normal for today using 1941-1970 normals was 47/35. 30 years later it's inched all the way up to 48/36. Same kind of pattern at JFK, LGA,and EWR. You'll also see the same kind of increases at raging metropolises like Caribou ME and Massena NY. The warming at NYC locations is consistent with more rural locations, and I guess this also exonerates the ASOS since the warming began a century ago.

[NorthShoreWx]

C'mon Ed, you know Reservoir Road is closed from December through April...

Short season...Orient doesn't open up until May in a lean year.

[NorthShoreWx]

Here's a wider shot:

Thanks.

JFK doesn't look that drastically different from the siting at LGA. I was hoping this would be an eye opener, but it didn't happen. LGA is definitely more urban than the Jamaica Bay area, but the other factors don't seem very different.

[tmagan]

I was just thinking that if temperatures were 15 degrees cooler Thursday morning, we would be looking at a severe flash freeze.

[snowman21]

I was just thinking that if temperatures were 15 degrees cooler Thursday morning, we would be looking at a severe flash freeze.

I don't know, seems awfully hard to do. I'm always amazed how fast pavement and concrete especially dry out after it stops raining or snowing. Strong winds just dry things out that much faster.

[psv88]

Pretty windy this morning on LI...my apt is elevated and exposed on a hill, winds def over 40...lost power for a bit early am.

[NorEaster27]

I was just thinking that if temperatures were 15 degrees cooler Thursday morning, we would be looking at a severe flash freeze.

flash freezes are hard to do here considering a NW wind is a downsloping wind for the area. The cold tends to take longer to move in as opposed if the wind was out of the north. It was much easier to get a flash freeze when I was living in CNY. Had many situations where we went from rain to snow once the cold front passed, I remember going from the 50s to the 20s in less than one hour.

[SACRUS]

Yeah the clouds got in the way. Helping pave the way for the first below normal month since Feb

Guidace handled this system rather well with the focus of the heaviest rains. Quite a drive down the turnpike and on the verrazzano bridge with the winds.

[tmagan]

KOKX has just issued a SVR.

[Rtd208]

Picked up 1.12" of rain today, storm total since yesterday 1.17".

[jm1220]

Winter's only 50 miles away!!

[ag3]

Torrential rain here in Bayside right in the middle of the line. Winds arent that strong.

[ict1523]

Howling winds in Manhattan about half an hour ago. With torrential rain.

[MJO812]

Heavy rain with dropping temps. Winter's on the way.

[doncat]

Temp down to 49 here after high of 61 earlier.