Typhoon Tip

Fortunately for the world ... there is no logical correlation whatsoever - even in a politicized climate debate, which in its self is absurd to begin with .. - where Nazi-ism has any iota of relationship in the mathematical justification vs denial of the greater climate debate/truth... That entire exchange (abv) could not be more patently absurd, and is entirely contrived nonsense. come on man... is anyone in here modestly intelligent -

"... Misplaced practice of granting climate change deniers a visible platform to spout their anti-scientific beliefs was showing signs of yielding to scientific reality ..." It's really, really difficult to do so in many cases, that is, not suppress opinions in a democratic society founded upon the basic principle ( among many others ) of freedom to expression ... Fact of the matter is, despite the ethical virtues, and intentions of the founding forefathers with the 1st Amendment's provisions of free speech ... that ethic was created in an era that was too different to really make the rigidity of it's interpretation as valued in the same way as it was when it was first necessarily formulated ...hundreds of years ago. The reality of our time is one parted company with the ethos/pathos of that long ago era. As an aside, part of the problem with the Constitution, that "bible" of American cultural heritage ... is that it really does not allow the natural process of cultural evolution take place - it stymies that process, a process that is now becoming increasingly more influenced by the entire spectrum of modern science and technologies. These forces have a power well beyond the imagination of those that engineered those principles back whence. This may seem like a bunch of long words,... but I really feel this 'smoldering dystopia' of untenable non-sustainability for Humanity that we're dancing around ... is more than just a climate-based one. And strategies to evoke necessary positive change, should be addressing this bigger sociological pallet of concerns, in how to handle contrived dissension. Yes...there are some opinions that not so much we "think" need to be suppressed, but if allowed to cultivate opinions ( immoral efforts, or ignorant ) would be so detrimental to the very survival of the species ( and countless others...) they cannot possibly be be heard - yet we are hand-cuffed to free-speech. I'm not questioning the virtuosity of that - just the philosophical quandary we've arrive upon as a civility. Hey, that's just as valid - if that's what society wants, to be dead ...by all means, dissension from consensus truths so that people can continue to feel good now - that's name of the game, then. That problem is, no one person should be jury and judge and force the silence of any tongue or pen - so it's a delicate matter. How to preserve the intention of free-speech, in an era where there is no time to educate - interesting dilemma.

Interesting... seems via the tenor in here - we've gone from speculation of a week or two earlier nadir to a late one?

No argument ... Firstly, as a primer, the arctic is very sensitive when nearing melt states; input therms mean much more to threshold periods than they do during deeply descended seasonality. This year the arctic domain space has been near, or at that threshold ( as has that also been a predicament becoming more common over the last decade, plausibly longer), where in lock step the Arctic Oscillation teleconnector become a reasonably well correlated/indicator for melt rates. -AO is a warm signal above the 60th parallel; where the N. Hemisphere has yet to begin its seasonal cascade, that becomes problematic ( newly so..) at onset of this new/re-asserting -AO mode.

I would suggest that it is actually the evidences that are the real trigger-points for that modality - not the science alone. I realize you never said or insinuated otherwise in your statement - I'm strictly speaking to the "straw-man" in the room, and my concern that people do not respond to threats they cannot directly perceive through the corporeal senses... Being told this or that, via science, is not enough. It's mere to them ...They need to be burned, and seeing whales wash-up on beaches with barbie doll components blocking their digestive tracks, fair-weather high tides swallowing island nations, and suffering heat waves a degree she of biblical apocalypses, are just ( unfortunately .. .) what are necessary to get this message successfully into minds. And those evidences ..an entire raft of which are not mentioned here, but are televised, pale in severity the future holds at current profligate pace of Humanity. Life as we know it is going to change ... or has to. Certain convenience delivery has one of two options: change; unable to change. Change may come via technologies... biodegradable plastics... sustainable green energy sources... etc..etc... and these technologies have been around for decades, unexplored or shelved, btw. But it's a race... enters the unable to change and ...well, that ends any discussion of any kind, everywhere - time will tell.

Typical behavior of a sensitive system at the nadir - it's responding to everything

Occasionally we'll get a click-by shooting by some nimrod troll that's too stupid to realize they aren't making the impact they think they are, and are in fact only sounding like this guy ... But those aren't really the typical forum user. Most of y'all and the regulars in here really are not the target of these moguls and/or celebrities of the denial-sphere. They're targeting their constituencies, telling them what they wanna here. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with it. They have an easily life if their constituencies are happy - and what makes them happy? This clear and obvious logically flawed vomit they spew from their bully pulpits...

Fwiw ... and I'm sure others are aware of this - or should be... The mean nadir going back a decade doesn't typically occur until the 15th thru the 20th ... There are a few years as others have noted where the minimum is achieved at an earlier date. Anyway, I suspect that the momentum and back-ground do not really favor the earlier nadir scenario. Whether that results in historic lows, notwithstanding. I suspect whether we do see that or not, we're losing ice until the Equinox. It'll be interesting to see -

Well ...yeah, and in that same spirit of "semantic fairness" ... the rise in the NAM hasn't been exactly overwhelmingly coherent... The lay-folk web-access site over CPC has it more like languidly elevating beginning two weeks ago ... finally succeeding at some point over the next 10 days. So, yeah. It's not a hugely convincing modality as you/we can see. Nevertheless...some slowing in melt rates is plausibly related. The thing is, the Arctic is sensitive to phase changes because of physics to put it bluntly. The thermal tolerance for ice->water->ice is narrow. Such that subtle variations in thermal contribution may have a seemingly larger proportionate response than one might think or be aware, if we're talking about some hypothetical formula of ( sun + dark vs ice covered albedo ocean surface + salinity variance + 1°C ) ... alter any one of these variables and the system presence a change, but if more than one of them gets altered that significance hockey-sticks in a real hurry... and so on... However the real equation of environmental factors that determines ice retention in the summer really works... we do know that the system is sensi ... So I find it intriguing that the GEFs begin signaling a relaxed negative Annular mode and then a week to two weeks later ...monitoring showed slowing... That doesn't seem like coincidence? But you and I are not parked out on the ice cap in a research hut either.

What really needs to be done is a deeper statistical analysis of past -AO summers. A good start; of the three 'hot months,' June, July, and August, when ever the three averaged negative in the Northern Annual Mode, what were the temperature anomaly distributions those years, both as scalar values, but also relative to the oscillation's SD curves. That kind of analysis might begin to expose a secondary trend ... revealing at least the plausibility of systemic change ( the elephant in the room .. notwithstanding), change too often lost in the din of climate noise. For example, suppose there was a -.5 SD mean in the AO in 1955, and the hemispheric temperatures were X. Then, in 2019, there was a -.5 SD mean, and the hemispheric temperatures were Z ... ( X - Z ) = some positive or negative value that in fairness, may not mean much? However... if this were expanded to a bigger comparative population, such that utilizing (x̄ - ȳ), ... where (y1+ y2+ ... + yn)/n = ȳ and the same for x̄ ... if the result equaled a positive number, that is a better finger-print for actual change.. I'm sure this sort of number juggling is being performed everywhere there is a reputable scientific process focused in environmental/atmospheric research/problem solving, but for some reason, I haven't found any published research that specialized in a relative AO to temperature anomaly distribution approach like that ... as a 2ndary precipitant study that might help to crystalize an image through the obfuscating blur of anomalies ( often used to hide truths and lies eh hm ). Primer: ... Negative NAMs correlate with warm temperature anomalies above the (*) 60th parallel. During those periods, (**) cool temperatures tend to occur below the 60th parallel, known as mid latitudes. Naturally, this overall pattern/distribution of temperature anomalies above and below the 60th parallel ... reverses during positive Annular Modes. ( * that ~ demarcation of latitude around the hemisphere does not take into account topographical/geologic imposing variances, and also, fluctuates higher and lower in latitude depending upon the season). ( ** relative to normal AND "pattern" ...a latter distinction often lost and/or strategically elided in efforts of deniers, as well as less learned in general. Relativity matters... a warm pattern may be so warm in 1900, and that same pattern may be cooler(warmer) at another time and space of different geological/environmental arena, a.k.a., the European heat waves now, versus similar pattern manifestation back whence). This has been a rather robustly +AO(NAM) summer. The Alaskan warm summer ... really should be compared to past positive annular mode summers, and also, other northern latitude/geographies around the hemisphere compared. Intuitively ...this is almost tongue-in-cheek and anyone objective has a pretty solid idea what the results are likely to look like ...Oh, some value of positive across the board, where -1 SD summer ins 1890' did not produce the same wamrth as this year...and so forth, but, taking a study through the arithmetic caries more weight for everyone save the eerily growing numbers of population that as an entirely separate and sociological concern, have come under the impression that is okay to say and act in adversarial 'no' in the face of Universal fact(s), that the right to do so is merely enough to refute the reality the do not want to accept. Very recently ( spanning the last two weeks ) the mode has been relaxing toward neutral/positive, and is forecast to continue to do so into September. This is just a heads up; it's an intra seasonal ...at times, intra-weekly time-scale teleconnector, so this is not a statement/intention for seasonal forecast.

I haven't been a part of this conversation stream recently so pardon if this is more at obtrusive ... It might ( or not ) be worth noting that the GEFs have been elevating the mode of the NAM since ~ mid August. In a vacuum, that putts the "had been forecast" part of this bold statement in question for me. As we know, a positive 'Annular Mode reverses the temperature anomaly correlations and would result/conducive to better ice retention. This is purely linear-statistical discussion point, however, and does not consider the bevy of other environmental factors that "synergistically" can also effect melt rates ...such as salinity variance and momentum, dark sea vs albedo surface absorption of solar...etc etc etc... Nonetheless, some of the graphical slowing in recent 10 days does actually fit that GEFs modality of the NAM in at least conceptual acceptance -

You may just be in hyperbole there but we are definitely close to any rank inside of top 10

Fwiw -the GEF -based NAM numbers have been elevating and in fact, are positive in the initialization as of last night. They are forecasting a brief dip back to neutral or perhaps modestly negative SD, before an even more robustly positive modality out toward week two. This observation of reversing pressure patterns is probably related to that - I haven't see then EPS rendition, but prognostics going back some ten days began to suggest that the annular mode may flip back then. I suggested that it might alleviate the melt rate ... slowing it down some. Heh, it may just rescue 2019 from tapping 2012 on the shoulder.

Mm... No not likely. "Year round," as in 'never' gaining ice back at all? That's not likely to be a reality in anyone's lifetime. If you/we mean that N. Hemisphere summers experience transient open sea conditions; that may occur at some point. Who knows if that would be a decade. Timing such a reality would depend upon how "accelerated" the acceleration is, as per recent studies go. There will be an ice-cap-transition period where there are summers with open seas that fluctuate back to ice cover the following winters. In fact, it's entirely possible that would happen with irregularity, too - some years the summer retains a small ice-cap, and then the next year ... the summer sees it disappear again. Only to repeat either scenario. That may go on for quite a while actually, long before any kind of Paleo./eocene thermal max -related sort of redux fully takes over. Anyway, there's going to be some growing pains. These longer term changes can and do take place in shorter orders of time, and acceleration in the present climate models, as well as empirical data do send alarming signals that "shorter" may favored over longer. But, we have to remember, shorter in the context of geology is still a bit of an existential misnomer. But this is not to dissuade you It's better for the world if folks are open-minded, vigilant toward more dire plausibility, because obviously it is the dire realities that cause the extinctions - not the relative utopias.

It is long been scienced and introduced via attribution studies/papers, just how sensitive the Arctic is. The question of ice morphology would certainly play into that mystique, especially when the domain is "teetering" with thermal resonance that is near melt point(s) - and there may be some variation there, too, based upon saline content. Up a degree, ice melts; down a degree; it-honeycombs/softens, but may remain in tact. I was just mentioning to Will that the NAM is rising. Those areas recently released could refreeze, but either way, the ablation rates would slow in a system that is on the thermal fence so to speak, pretty markedly over a rather narrow range of temperature input.

That's what I've been hitting at yup. We'll see. The AO mode is shifting more positive in the means. Not sure what the general level of knowledge is re that particular atmospheric index but, when it is positive, we tend to warm at mid latitudes around the 45th parallel of the Hemi, while the polar vortex strengthens. That is concomitant with height falls and cold genesis within the mean PV - so essentially diametrical to our correlations. +AO cold up there, warm down here; -AO vice versa... What I am getting at is that maybe we see a slowing coming into the end here and that bumps 2019 out of contention for top apocalypse indicator, to something more like we be dire-f'ed

This doesn't prove anything other than one's lack of any real understanding in the physical processes guiding the greater environmental system... particularly that Time is a variable in it, or any causality-link to pernicious influence in a system... And, also, this stuff above is just horribly blanket applicated and is incorrect.. No one said in the 1980s the Acid Rain was going to result in that. No one said in 1990 that the Ozone Layer meant that... Both those were warnings...both those were dealt with both at home and abroad, in global efforts to curtail their negative impacts and guess what? It worked.. Acid rain reduced by scrubbers at stack release points...and thought obviously still exists...the technology is there to prevent it/mitigate ..because of those sciences of those eras. This is complete garbage. Non-reality-based shit. Period. As far as everything else on this list... 2000 to present ... it's just too stupid to comment on.

I'm curious if the ensemble push for an elevating NAM might help in preventing a nadir quite as deep as 2012 ... We're still likely doing a bottom 3 ranking ( or so...) either way, but if the oscillation/mode relaxes toward neutral we could be on the verge of a slowing in the melt rates. + annular modes are actually inversely temperature distributive to middle latitudes and tends to favor land-based cryo ... in addition to cooling the polar vortex domain space. But not sure about sea ice though. Particularly this early in the in the boreal autumn ...and also considering the melt- inertia, which is also a factor.

yeah...it's interesting to see 2019 be within decimals of those floor values when there's an average bottom date of Sept -16 among those other years, and we're only on August 21

This is gonna be close ...

There are solutions to the entire power-grid aspect of this that are completely obscured(ing) from masses. Partially by design ... partially by habit. There are "exotic" technologies in the private sector that no on even knows about ...buried, quietly... be it Trumpian morality and ethics, ...or just the hand-me-down dogmas of generational traditionalism within people's ways of life - basically ...culturally suppressed. But because of the suppression ... oblivion, and what probably should be more obvious has to now be 'out of the box thinking.' It's not that it is out of the box, ...it's just that we've been conditioned by a combination of convenience and apathy not to consider. It is possible to sequester electrical charge straight out of the ambient atmosphere. Yup... free energy. But therein is the problem ... that poke in the craw of the sociopath, "free" ... "hmmm... shit. That means I don't get to con Humanity into dependency on Oil and other pernicious means of energy extraction ... wantonly ignoring morality along the way in reaching the goals of my quarterly reports ...! God damn it..." It kind of reminds me of the "Mosquito Coast" Think about it - even you are not a physicist ...you should be able to intuit the plausibility. There can be a way to draw power directly from any gaseous volume that contains energy (thermal resonance) greater than absolute zero - ... we're living on a planet where there is just such a volume, and guess what... it's got so much thermal energy in the free static air that any quantization would be so large a number, it would escape all effective meaning... And, these devices have been invented... It's called the thermoelectric effect ...basically, it's theoretically known spanning multiple generations... where it is possible to convert temperature differences, directly to electric voltage ... ( and vice versa...which could be harnessed in home heating and cooling without too much imagination ... etct) And it's all done through the physics of thermocoupling ... ...etc..etc.. But nope - Humans can't seem to evolve away from that pesky evolutionary advantage that no one would ever concede was necessary along the way: GREED... Hoarding and me-firstitude favors the individual. See...the way that works ( crude model): when the collective cooperation spirit of the community is about to cause the extinction of the village that hoarder survives his/her genes into the next generation - greed lives... It is why greed is actually a core instinct along with all others, in the genetic make-up of humans. It's sneaky, stealthy ...furtive presence in all dealings has piggybacked along with cooperation instinct along the evolutionary tract. Any moral ( morals can be bad or good by the way...) we can learn to avoid them? ...suppress is more like it... But, greed is no longer necessary in times of surplus and opulence ...and at present state of evolution, human ingenuity has long outfoxed the basic ecological model of survival by provisions therein. We produce our own provisions...is surplus. Perhaps if the asteroid does strike one day, or the Carrington Event shuts this thing done and there's an immediate jolt back to primal living ...greed will have it's stealthy place again... But until that happens... it's an instinct that hasn't turned off...but is causing all this... And is hugely exposed. Because it's morality is now competing with the morality and ethics of that which would provided a greener vision for the world. That's really all it is... that simple. Humans can't do anything truly altruistic. Nope. They have to invent a illusory system of value, Economics... ( which sorry for the soulless among us who are so bought in they're oblivious to reality... money has no intrinsic value outside the parlance and tragic comedy of Human affairs - we all merely agree on it's value... ) and then hold individual's ability to survive for ransom by making profit off that dependency

Within a Millennium seems a bit conserved to me.... Particularly when the GW is accelerating ... I didn't look very closely at their math but on the surface ( heh...pun) they didn't appear to have logr effects due to accelerating variable values... This whole thing with synergy is just not being taken very seriously -probably more like less understood. Unrelated ... but Sanjay Gupta was recently extolling human beings are simply not wired to process the specter of climate change - I further that sentiment by re-iterating some of my recent opine material, related to " ..humans have never responded very well to threats that do not readily appeal via one of the corporeal senses.." - it's commentary routed into the same concepts... and GW/climate change is an insidiously quite stalker. This is particularly true, when the one force that is causing the ballast of the pernicious changes ( Human activity ) is uniquely adaptable ... thus making it easier to deny for readily evading its harmful effects via that same adaptation. I further again that synergistic effects ... acceleration, and gestaltian under-estimates can under calculate ablation ...the atmosphere accelerates further... that complicates their application - I'll have to read the article again... ( I'm on about 7 of these today - my god..) But the ocean levels rise at a greater rate than these linear application of rudimentary mathematics will imply given acceleration.

Yeah that product I posted is the MASIE ... or the augmented IMS ... hints at that in the lower right text block ...which for some reason had previous escaped my attention. Heh... anyway I found a different site that describes similarly when searching this shit - anyway, I think these curves have to converge at some point - thing is... we're so close to shared curve space that's probably splitting hairs at the moment... 2012 vs 2019 I mean

Okay ... .this is just quick and dirty Web goop but... IMS is being used by the National Snow and Ice Date Center ... IMS Daily Northern Hemisphere Snow and Ice Analysis at 1 km, 4 km, and 24 km Resolutions, Version 1. This data set provides maps of snow cover and sea ice for the Northern Hemisphere from February 1997 to the present from the National Ice Center's Interactive Multisensor Snow and Ice Mapping System (IMS). That's what's confusing ... if we say "...2nd lower behind NSIDC" ( which I'm not trying to refute...) but this statement above says they are using the same IMS tech, and said tech is showing 2019 has been lower than 2012 the whole way... that's a discrepancy.

I have a question - which may be fairly 'duh' but since I haven't been by those other sources ... Are those more comprehensive than "sea ice only" ? That IMS product is sea ice only ... And also, just fyi ... the IMS product comes from NSIDC - we may be able to put the pieces together here on why the disparity. It's gotta just be some dumb product thing I'm not seeing shit