michsnowfreak

I have noticed this subtly for years now...the milder winters do better with snow now than they did decades ago. Honestly, a warming climate is a boon for snow lovers in northern New England, the upper midwest and northern Great Lakes. And once you get down to your and my latitude, while it can lead to some frustration it can also lead to some great winters, and I do not see our snowfall averages falling anytime soon. More worries once you get to NYC, but even there, I wouldnt exactly worry if i lived there since it can snow in Pensacola lol.

100%. Its as simple as can be. And again, outside of these huge storms its really a minor issue. Although today was a great example of that. We were treated to a late season snowfall last night ( @LibertyBell you thought the flurries at the game the other day were nice, it snowed steadily all night last night!). I swiped my board at midnight. 0.5" fell before midnight and 1.1" after, so I finished with 1.6" of wet snow, however my morning snow depth was 1".

I sound like a broken record repeating over and over....most first order stations in climates prone to snow have used the 6 hour method since 1950. I wouldnt worry about coop totals because they ALWAYS should be taken with a grain of salt, whether its the early days of the 1800s or the present day. As for pre-1950 measurments, were any of us THERE to confirm what snowfalls were accurately or accurately not measured? Its crazy to to me to think that some will take a journal from the 1700s or a newspaper from the 1800s at face value, and assume "wow if they say there was 3 feet on the level imagine how much would be meausured every 6 hours".....yet they question these 1900s-1940s measurments that have well documented records by the then Weather Bureau to go with them. I normally dont play the game of finding some random city that appears to have undermeasured snowfall in the 1930s and assume that was everyone, but for every one of those i could post 10 first order stations who data appears just fine. But Im so intrigued by this NYC discussion i may poke around in some of their data on ncdc later.

Most areas got 1-2" but it was a weird event. Washtenaw and all but far NE Wayne county (the I-94 corridor from Ann Arbor to DTW) had a solid 1.5-2". Much of Lenawee county also had around 2", with northern Monroe getting 1-2" but then nothing at all in the city of Monroe due to Marine influence of the east wind off Lake Erie. Downtown Detroit into St Clair shores west to about Royal Oak, in a narrow band, also got no snow accumulation due to the wind off Lake St Clair, whereas west of St Clair and north to the rest of Detroits north burbs had around 1". DTW had 0.42" precip and 1.8" snow. This brings the season total to 28.7", & the 1.6" I got here brings my season to 29.5". What started as a joke with my nephews is now a tradition, if theres snow during Easter season we make a snow bunny. Overnight was a true winter wonderland, but by daylight it was much more sloppy and slushy as youd expect.

Rain turned to snow around 11pm here and started sticking almost right away!

Wow...in Hillsdale?

Very intrigued with tonight's setup. Models making it look like rain will develop and quickly turn to snow here.

I had not heard of black Sunday but I looked up in the Detroit Free Press and sure enough, the massive headline of the 9-25-50 paper read "Eerie Midday Darkness Leaves City Awestruck". I forgot several other things to add to the incredible year of records and extremes. Also had the warmest Nov temp on record. It was a fascinating year locally. ~January saw frequent and heavy rainfall, causing flooding at times. ~January 25, 1950 sees the all-time record high at Detroit of 67F, as well as the warmest Jan min of 55F. ~Winter returned the 2nd half of Feb 1950 with cold weather, and along with it came a coal shortage causing mandatory brownouts which inevitably left people freezing. ~April 13, 1950 sees the coldest April high on record of just 24F ~September 24, 1950 a cold day, high of 46F, sees darkness turn the city black midday, due to canadian wildfires ~November 1, 1950 after a warm Halloween, temps soared to 81F on November 1st, making it the warmest November temp on record. 3.5 weeks later we were thrust into deep winter as the infamous appalachian storm gave us several days of deformation snows and bitter cold. Actually, when recounting the year 1950, it is downright fascinating.

You and I have both mentioned it, but it kind of gets lost in the shuffle (and I know we have all strayed OT on this thread lol)...but the main differences you will find are in the really big storms or the massive fluffy lake events. The difference in your more run-of-the mill snowfalls is negligible, and if its a snowfall on the order of 10-1 to 13-1 ratio with minimal wind, you would probably see no difference at all.

1950 still holds the record at Detroit for the warmest January high on record (67F - Jan 25th) and coldest April high (24F - Apr 13th) since 1874. Those same dates also hold the record at U of M Ann Arbor since 1880, with an incredible high of 72F on Jan 25, 1950 and a high of just 26F on Apr 13, 1950. Flints records only go to 1921, but they too hold the record in 1950, with a high of 65F on Jan 25th & a high of 22F on Apr 13th.

I dont remember, but obviously DTW is usually warmest of the 3.

I will say it again. The same snow measurement guidelines for first-order stations have been in place since 1950. Any station is going to have had multiple observers and likely site changes since then, but the guidelines are the same. To pick out one here and there is irrelevant. I can find tons of spotter/coop data that clearly undermeasures snow by an insane amount, whether you are talking in 2025 or 1905. Dubois, PA is obviously not a first order station, they have a limited data set from the mid-1960s to mid-1990s. Even pre-1950, I have looked at plenty of station data at first-order stations and the snow depth is not just the snowfall added to the previous snow depth. Ive analyzed snowfall in great detail - more than any other aspect of weather (and ive analyzed them all), and i find it appears quite accurate since 1900 or so.

I too agree, and never has hourly clearing been standard, so if that was being done, again, that is fault of the individual observer.

This is just another example of how all observers are different and you cant make blanket assumptions about past or present.

Wow thats definitely weird. I think just like in any other field, all NWS mets/employees are different and maybe the one you had had a soapbox or something. I assumed when you said they tossed it you just meant they didnt use it, but to actually note that "old school" thing is wild. But inconsistency is the key word here. Regardless of what they do with coop/spotter reports, the official sites all clear every 6 hours. The OPL at DTX is awesome and friendly, Im going to ask her some time about the spotter stuff and see what her take or understanding on it is.

Im not sure but probably has to have some sort of lake influence, because again, it has to do with just getting that sifting arctic powder falling in below zero air, which isnt really a synoptic feature, and the sky is otherwise mostly or partly clear. Picture when a powder snow is sitting on tree branches and the wind blows it off and it comes off in fine mists of powder/flakes. Its like that. Thats sort of what im trying to describe, and the sun hits it and makes a "snowbow" of colors. Ive seen it a few times but it isnt common.

I always thought when they said "on the level" it was implying that was the measurement, then they would notate the higher drifts. I definitely doubt some of the totals back then, but I always look at it as having some information is better than others. I use 1900 as about the baseline for when I can really trust observations. The 1870s-1890s data is imo not perfect BUT is a great tool for us to piece together what each individual winter was like. Looking at the data here in Detroit for 1880-81 and 1881-82 is almost unbelievable in that 1880-81 was the most severe winter on record (until 2013-14 came along :)) and 1881-82 the warmest (still to this day). But the Laura Ingalls Wilder books (granted, this was in Dakota Territory I believe) detail this, one book being called "The Long Winter" which discusses the blizzard parade from Oct to Apr 1880-81, and the next book, while not concentrating on the weather as much references how warm and without snow 1881-82 was.

Thats another thing (bolded). The old days of weather observing showed extremely meticulous observations. Again, I have seen some of the old weather log books myself and they are incredible. Many days have a narrative that you will never see when just looking at the raw data (A narrative on Dec 25, 1901: Night of the 24 - 25 cloudy; moist snow continued, heaviest between hours of 1:30 and 4:30 am, ended at 6 am. amount of precipitation .62 inches. The street cars ran all night to keep the tracks open. The snow adhered to trees etc, and made a very beautiful scene. Depth of snow on ground at 8 am, 5.5 inches). Fast forward to today, and you are talking everything is automated with exception of snow, and while most NWS offices work diligently to ensure they have good/well trained snow observers, they are subject to error like anyone else, and often are not actual NWS mets. So this acting like we have perfect measurements today and discounting old stuff is not silly. And once again, Im not sure where this 1950-1980 stuff is coming from. Nearly ALL first order sites have followed the 6-hour rule since 1950 (spotters are another story).

How does everyone know they didnt just measure snow and apply a 10-1 ratio, rather than the other way around? Ive seen old weather logs and they are incredibly detailed, but there is no reference to how or if they melted the snow. You are assuming that they melted it and applied a 10-1 ratio, yet they frequently would say there was "21" on the level with higher drifts" or something like that. Though its been long since discounted, the original "rule of thumb" was 10" of snow holds 1" of water, so in the 1800s, it would be a hell of a lot easier to measure the snow with a ruler/yardstick and assume the 10-1 ratio, rather than not do the simple task of measuring it with a ruler but waiting around for hours if not a day for the snow to melt in a can indoors.

Sounds beautiful! I dont recall seeing that, though I have seen a snowbow and as said above, those brutal cold mornings it can be sifting glitter from a mostly blue sky, that is a sight to see and it glitters unlike any camera can capture, tho ive tried.

I always wish i lived in a good radiational cooling area. I live blocks away from the Detroit River so the water kind of buffers my lows and makes them similar to DTW. But some of the radiational cooling spots in SE MI can really tank. The DTX NWS is a great example of this. It is a radiational cooling magnet in a rural area of Detroits far NW suburbs. They have data since 2000, so looking at the past 25 years of data, the average between there and DTW (Detroit Metro Apt) officially is very different. Annual days at or below 0F: DTW- 3, DTX- 10 Annual days at or below 32F: DTW- 117, DTX- 150 First freeze avg: DTW- Oct 27th, DTX- Oct 8th Last freeze avg: DTW- Apr 24th, DTX- May 12th Radiational cooling is apparent all year long too. Even in the heat of summer, DTX NWS will fall into the 40s several times in July & August, whereas DTW typically does not see 40s in July or August.

Another cold morning. 25F at DTW, the frost this morning was very glittery. 5 of the first 9 days of April have had lows in the 20s at Detroit: 1st- 26 5th- 29 7th- 26 8th- 23 9th- 25 Last night some isolated but potent lake effect snow showers gave a coating to an inch around Port Huron.

Game time temp was 34F. But Skubal pitched a masterpiece and Tigers won 5-0!

Some of the intense arctic shots have been concentrating more in the Plains/Midwest than the east coast. These arctic blasts typically are much colder to our west. The Great Lakes buffer the cold a bit, so in some of the biggest arctic blast we will see a "modification" of the air that often entails brisk winds and lake clouds and flakes, sometimes you get this fine arctic powder than just comes down and coats everything in glitter, despite nothing on radar, with temps being anywhere from 0F to -10F or so, whereas areas west of the lakes will be crystal clear and like -20 to -25F or something. One thing that I notice is that the arctic airmasses are windier. I mean, you still get radiational cooling on clear, calm nights (esp with snowcover) but the temps dont tank as much in the metro area as they will in the rural areas. But these arctic blasts are almost always giving us below zero temps with gusty winds, creating brutal wind chills, and we usually get a quick one or two even in the milder winters. Since the much advertised "winter pattern shift" beginning in 2016, we have still seen -30F or colder wind chills in Jan 2019, Dec 2022, Jan 2024, & Jan 2025. The coldest Ive felt was on Jan 6, 2014. It was about -14F with wind chills near -50F, and I took my gloves off to take this sunset pic and in the seconds I had my hands exposed they burned when I went inside. Not in my wildest dreams did I imagine that winter was only just beginning.

Its a shame there isnt more consistence. I think the reason they probably dont have spotters do it is because most cant/wont. Some will, but others wont. Again, here in a climate of more frequent but less dramatic snowfalls, Ive learned by far that the bigger the snowstorm the bigger the settling. I check the daily areas coop reports so I already know locally who is good and who is not. You can literally tell who actually measures properly and who measures whats on the board at their obs time. I have seen snowfalls that melted the day before actually go in as a trace, and thats ridiculous. I know some of the DTX mets and Ive heard from others on this board who know some of their local NWS mets. Seems to me that the consensus is, the first order stations are called/call in for every obs (00z, 06z, 12z, 18z). Detroit and Flint have good observers, Saginaw is a bit more flighty. The NWS office is located in a very rural area far NW of Detroit. I wish they kept the NWS offices at the main first order site! If there is something fishy with a first order sites report, the met will usually question the observer (Ive heard this happens with CLE NWS for the Toledo observer). I think/assume the general consensus with NWS offices is make sure your first order/main climate sites are coming in with proper/realistic measurments and as for your coops/spotters, just continue to post the "how to measure snow" guidelines on social media and hope for the best