George001

Imo the following winter is the one to watch for northern areas, not this upcoming one. I don’t see the roaring STJ dying off quickly especially if the El Niño lingers into the spring before collapsing into La Niña. When you combine the lingering STJ with a La Niña, big things can happen for northern areas. When it comes to sustained cold in an El Niño this powerful, I need to see it to believe it. Historical precedence for these super ninos is a warm east.

Super El Niño is bad for sustained cold, it isn’t necessarily bad for snow. For say NYC and SE you guys I think could actually do well snow wise because all it takes is one big storm to get you over your seasonal snow totals. I would also think the storm track with the active super Nino driven STJ could be good for the mid Atlantic. Super Nino is bad for coastal SNE and ski areas for 2 reasons however: 1. More of our snow consists of nickel and dime events than huge storms, so the super Nino tradeoff (warmer overall, very few nickle and dime events, elevated risk of huge storms) hits northern areas harder. This is the bigger issue for ski areas, as well as the worse snow retention due to it being milder overall. 2. The active southern jet doesn’t necessarily push storms up the coast if the “big one” does hit , often they slide out after hitting the mid Atlantic rather than coming up (see Jan 2016), and when they do come up they tend to run inland a bit and bring in warmer air, bringing rain to coastal New England. This is the bigger issue for areas like Boston, the juiced up Miller A track often isn’t great here. We tend to do better with Miller Bs and SWFE events. I’m not optimistic for my area and the ski areas, but in NYC and the mid atlantic I don’t think how things are developing is necessarily bad in terms of snow prospects.

Yep, we are going to shatter the old records. The daily Nino 3.4 already is above 2C before August, and the subsurface warmth continues to go nuclear. I’m taking the over on ONI and RONI >3C

Wow this was back in March, well done. Interestingly the spring predictability barrier went the other way in that guidance was underestimating the strength of the El Niño. Imo this was a very well predicted event, it tipped its hand early and guidance already was flagging a potential super Nino in late winter/early spring. The biggest events really do tip their hand early, I recall the subsurface began warming as early as February. At the time I didn’t think much of it, but in hindsight that was a sign of things to come.

If the model projections are correct this event will be the strongest in history by a wide margin. In my opinion this could actually make analog forecasting tougher, because even other super Ninos like 2015-2016, 1997-1998, 1982-1983 have a decent chance ending up a full 1C weaker than this event. I’d still use those years because they are the closest matches we have to this one, but this truly is a once in a lifetime Godzilla El Niño. I’m thinking we see almost a more extreme version of those super Nino years (eg even stronger STJ than 97-98), but I’m really not sure what the implications are. What are your thoughts? As a northern skier I’m not too happy about this developing Godzilla nino, but at the same time I’ve always been drawn to extreme weather events, so it will be interesting to keep following this and see how things play out regardless. This one has a good what 5 months left of strengthening and is already above 2C on the dallies for ENSO 3.4, 3C for ENSO 3, and 4C for ENSO 1.2, and the subsurface is much more impressive than even 97-98. So really no ambiguity here, this Nino already is a beast and will continue to break records.

Joe Bastardi is a grifter, you did your research and know what you are talking about so you can see through his bullshit. He’s not dumb (his credentials and knowledge are legit), but his goal is to get clicks and $$$ for his business, not truth. It works, he’s a good businessman, not a good long range forecaster. Hyperbole and promises of big winters in populated areas (new england) get the clicks and money.

I get the whole wanting to get clicks and money thing (the east coast is a populated area with a bigger market)…. But for me as a skier I want a realistic forecast, not wishcasting or doom casting. That’s why I don’t pay attention to what they are saying on social media, I have a select few people I listen to on here and elsewhere and block out the noise when it comes to winter forecasts. I care about results and track record, so clickbaiters like JB don’t get my views. I know we don’t always see eye to eye, but I do think you are correct that the super Nino + -PDO = snowy narrative is a load of horseshit for several reasons: 1. 57-58 and 65-66 happened in an older, cooler climate. 57-58 in particular I looked at the temp profiles, and they were more borderline than cold east, it isn’t clear to me one way or another whether a repeat of that pattern would favor a snowy outcome in today’s climate. It’s not like 14-15 where a repeat of that would be cold + snowy east today. 2. Those years are cherry-picked. I haven’t heard one peep about 72-73 and 23-24, which were also -PDO super El Niños and horrific winters in the east. If you are going to be objective, you include all the -PDO strong or super El Niño years, not just the ones you like. Cherry-picking data to push a narrative is something I cannot stand, I see this bullshit all the time in sports too with young players and or prospects. What I and or others want to happen is irrelevant, the data is the data, and it is unscientific to cherry pick to fit a narrative. Also, weren’t those cherry picked years more strongly -NAO (I’m pretty sure 65-66 was)? From my understanding the part of the solar cycle we are in favors more of a neutral to positive NAO, not negative (this was brought up last year, and the NAO was indeed slightly positive this past winter. Actually the past few winters have been +NAO). Chucks NAO formula last I checked predicts an NAO close to neutral (Chuck, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here). I know there are mixed signals, but the point is there isn’t really much support for the NAO to be as negative like it was during some of the snowier big Nino years. I would consider that to be a big issue when years like say 09-10 are brought up as well.

I’m not sure why I’m seeing people touting the -PDO + super nino combo as a cold/snowy signal for the east when that isn’t supported by historical precedence. The super nino obviously isn’t going anywhere, so I would think those rooting for a snowier outcome in the east would want the PDO to rise, not remain negative.

Yeah, this El Niño is developing like a stronger version of the 97-98 super Nino.

I’m not sure why you got roasted for that. Imo, the base assumption for 27-28 should be a fairly powerful La Niña until proven otherwise. We haven’t had a strong La Niña since the 10-11 winter, but I would not be surprised at all if that changes come fall 2027.

I’m skeptical that we don’t get a major La Niña snap back after a Godzilla El Niño. There is a good chance this El Niño becomes the strongest event since the industrial era.

This is good advice. I started doing DBT as a patient fairly recently and it helps a lot. Having poor emotional regulation really sucks, it got me banned from countless online forums (multiple weather forums, sports forums, reddit, etc). Once I stopped blaming everyone else and realized the common denominator was me it clicked. I got help, since doing that I’ve started letting things go more. It’s still a work in progress but I haven’t challenged anyone to a duel in a while so that’s good.

That’s certainly possible. Imo the issue my area (near Boston) has in super ninos isn’t just the temps, it’s temps + storm track (miller A setups which are more common in super Ninos are very prone to screwing us). In Michigan you have more buffer room with the temps than we do, and if we do get some MC forcing it could lead to more of an inside runner track which is good to you guys out west.

Agree, it’s absolutely worth being open minded about this. I noticed a typical El Niño summer is cooler here, it has been a very hot summer more typical of a La Niña. My shitbox has no AC so this is something that is very noticeable for me. Like you said there is no disagreement about this early developing El Niño turning into one of the strongest super ninos on record, but even super ninos can have MC forcing. We saw it in the 2015-2016 super Nino when the super Nino + west pac warm pool MC forcing combined to produce one of the warmest Decembers ever in the east. 2015-2016 was a well coupled super Nino by every metric, and it had residual MC forcing in December. I’m not sure why there is so much resistance to idea. Both things can be true. It’s a powerful El Niño pattern that is driving the quiet Atlantic hurricane season + busy pacific hurricane season (classic strong El Niño signature), but there are other factors at play too that are interacting with the developing El Niño. There’s a reason we aren’t seeing the typical El Niño temp profile in the east this summer.

The issue I’m having here is Im not seeing how they would have fixed the whole mean smoothing extreme anomalies thing (something that is inherently higher risk in an extreme tail ENSO event) since 2023. Maybe im wrong and am underestimating the upgrades, but im at a point where i need to see it to believe it. On the other hand, elevated risk does not equal guaranteed, there is a world where Bluewave is right from a probability standpoint but the winter ends up only being slightly AN like the European guidance mean has right now because that extremely warm month that often happens in super ninos just doesn’t happen this year. You are correct that we don’t have statistical proof of the current versions biases in ninos yet. Thats a valid point, so the best we can do at this point is make an educated guess. I still think it’s worth trying.