Renewable Energy & Technologies Of The Future

[SVT450R]

I figured it would be good to get a nice discussion going about renewable/alternative energy and future green technologies.

To get the ball rolling i do feel we are making some progress in all aspects of it some may think otherwise but it's not going to happen over night. For example solar needs to be cheaper to produce and more efficient i believe we will hopefully see in the next decade some big changes in that department. Is renewable energy going to take time of course but you can't deny that nothing is being done. It will just get more efficient as time goes on and as our technology progresses.

Global

[A-L-E-K]

Until we can efficiently store/transport the power generated solar/wind will remain limited.

[SVT450R]

Until we can efficiently store/transport the power generated solar/wind will remain limited.

Could you elaborate on the bold are you talking about the actual grid?

[NEOH]

I figured it would be good to get a nice discussion going about renewable/alternative energy and future green technologies.

To get the ball rolling i do feel we are making some progress in all aspects of it some may think otherwise but it's not going to happen over night. For example solar needs to be cheaper to produce and more efficient i believe we will hopefully see in the next decade some big changes in that department. Is renewable energy going to take time of course but you can't deny that nothing is being done. It will just get more efficient as time goes on and as our technology progresses.

Global

I would recommend investing in Solyndra (joking of course). Solar has largely been a bust. The Chinese produce/manufacture the materials roughly 70% cheaper than American companies can do it, and the ROI is so so.

Green/sustainable building pratices would certainly reduce energy consumption... hopefully more building owners/developers will invest in this new technology.

[Jonger]

[SVT450R]

I would recommend investing in Solyndra (joking of course). Solar has largely been a bust. The Chinese produce/manufacture the materials roughly 70% cheaper than American companies can do it, and the ROI is so so.

Green/sustainable building pratices would certainly reduce energy consumption... hopefully more building owners/developers will invest in this new technology.

I agree there definitely seem to be some progress in that type of market like more efficient appliances to better efficient building materials.

[A-L-E-K]

Could you elaborate on the bold are you talking about the actual grid?

solar/wind are too dependant on external variables and we don't yet have effficient ways to store/transport power generated during optimal operating conditions for peak demand/low generating periods.

[Jonger]

solar/wind are too dependant on external variables and we don't yet have effficient ways to store/transport power generated during optimal operating conditions for peak demand/low generating periods.

Well, we could always overload wind/solar to at least generate 100% daylight hour power needs.

[PhillipS]

Until we can efficiently store/transport the power generated solar/wind will remain limited.

Alek - you raise very good points about renewables - storage and transmission are two hurdles to integrating renewable energy resources into power grids. Progress is being made but we still need technology improvements, particularly in the area of energy storage. Transmission is more a matter of needing additional infrastructure rather than technological breakthroughs.

I'd like to give a bit of background for those who aren't familiar with what happens when you flip a light switch. Electrical power is a commodity just like corn or pork bellies. Like corn and pork bellies there are producers and consumers - but a critical difference for electrical power is that, for the most part, production and consumption have to occur simultaneously. When you flip a switch and increase your demand somewhere a generator has to increase its output to meet that demand. Electrical utilites constantly juggle their generating resources to meet their customers' demands. Fortunately, from the utilities point of view, the electrical loads for a pool of consumers, such as a city, follows predictable daily and seasonal curves so utilities can predict what resources they need to have on-line to meet the demand. And the interconnections between utilities allow those with excess power to sell to those needing additional power.

Renewable energy resources (including solar, wind and tidal) are something of a headache for utilities due to their intermittent nature. If the sun goes behind clouds or the wind stops blowing the output from these resources can go from peak power to nothing in a matter of minutes. But the customer demand doesn't go away so the utility has to keep a matching capacity of 'spinning reserve' available to make up the sudden shortfall. This spinning reserve isn't cheap - it takes money to build, maintain and operate - but it only generates revenue when its power is used by consumers. This is why the General Manager for Austin Energy addressed a smart-grid conference several years ago by saying "It is our dream that every residence and business will have solar panels some day, and it is our nightmare that every residence and business will have solar panels some day." The figure commonly used is that renewable energy resources can only comprise about 20% of a utility's generation portfolio.

Even when renewable energy resources are producing at their peak capacity there remains the issue of mismatch between when the power is being produced and when consumers want to use it. The peak electrical demand is between about 3pm and 6pm daily. Fixed (non-tracking) solar panels produce their max power between about 11am and 2pm, depending on orientation. Not a close match. Wind can be an even worse mismatch.

Large wind turbines have the additional problem of reactive power.needs. Small wind turbines, such as you might install at your home, typically have permanent magnet generators that produce power whenever they are spinning. Large wind turbines are AC generators which require power to energize their coils. One large turbine is not a big deal, but the wind farms being built today have hundreds of turbines and the combined reactive power demands are brief, but enormous. Sometimes more than the local utility can provide.

Energy storage changes the situation dramatically by decoupling power generation from power consumption. If more power is being produced than consumed the surplus is stored until needed. Similarly, if the demand is greater than the available generating capacity then the shortfall is made up from the stored energy. Power can also be stored when generation is cheapest (night) and used when demand is greatest (afternoon) There are a number of energy storage technologies in production and development, including batteries, flywheels, pumped hydro, and compressed air energy storage (CAES). Energy storage capacity for utiltiy scale applications starts at about 1 MWh and goes up to 3 GWh.

[SVT450R]

Video reminds me of article i seen on making artificial trees that scrub CO2 out of the air something like a ton a day.

[SVT450R]

Alek - you raise very good points about renewables - storage and transmission are two hurdles to integrating renewable energy resources into power grids. Progress is being made but we still need technology improvements, particularly in the area of energy storage. Transmission is more a matter of needing additional infrastructure rather than technological breakthroughs.

I'd like to give a bit of background for those who aren't familiar with what happens when you flip a light switch. Electrical power is a commodity just like corn or pork bellies. Like corn and pork bellies there are producers and consumers - but a critical difference for electrical power is that, for the most part, production and consumption have to occur simultaneously. When you flip a switch and increase your demand somewhere a generator has to increase its output to meet that demand. Electrical utilites constantly juggle their generating resources to meet their customers' demands. Fortunately, from the utilities point of view, the electrical loads for a pool of consumers, such as a city, follows predictable daily and seasonal curves so utilities can predict what resources they need to have on-line to meet the demand. And the interconnections between utilities allow those with excess power to sell to those needing additional power.

Renewable energy resources (including solar, wind and tidal) are something of a headache for utilities due to their intermittent nature. If the sun goes behind clouds or the wind stops blowing the output from these resources can go from peak power to nothing in a matter of minutes. But the customer demand doesn't go away so the utility has to keep a matching capacity of 'spinning reserve' available to make up the sudden shortfall. This spinning reserve isn't cheap - it takes money to build, maintain and operate - but it only generates revenue when its power is used by consumers. This is why the General Manager for Austin Energy addressed a smart-grid conference several years ago by saying "It is our dream that every residence and business will have solar panels some day, and it is our nightmare that every residence and business will have solar panels some day." The figure commonly used is that renewable energy resources can only comprise about 20% of a utility's generation portfolio.

Even when renewable energy resources are producing at their peak capacity there remains the issue of mismatch between when the power is being produced and when consumers want to use it. The peak electrical demand is between about 3pm and 6pm daily. Fixed (non-tracking) solar panels produce their max power between about 11am and 2pm, depending on orientation. Not a close match. Wind can be an even worse mismatch.

Large wind turbines have the additional problem of reactive power.needs. Small wind turbines, such as you might install at your home, typically have permanent magnet generators that produce power whenever they are spinning. Large wind turbines are AC generators which require power to energize their coils. One large turbine is not a big deal, but the wind farms being built today have hundreds of turbines and the combined reactive power demands are brief, but enormous. Sometimes more than the local utility can provide.

Energy storage changes the situation dramatically by decoupling power generation from power consumption. If more power is being produced than consumed the surplus is stored until needed. Similarly, if the demand is greater than the available generating capacity then the shortfall is made up from the stored energy. Power can also be stored when generation is cheapest (night) and used when demand is greatest (afternoon) There are a number of energy storage technologies in production and development, including batteries, flywheels, pumped hydro, and compressed air energy storage (CAES). Energy storage capacity for utiltiy scale applications starts at about 1 MWh and goes up to 3 GWh.

Nice breakdown for those that don't know you made some good key points.

[Jonger]

Video reminds me of article i seen on making artificial trees that scrub CO2 out of the air something like a ton a day.

That's the figure they came up with too.

[LakeEffectKing]

My favorite potential for renewables:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GThmu_vD_zM

[blue sky]

We are entering a golden age of carbon extraction. Fracking, Deep sea drilling, etc. Renewables have no chance.

[PhillipS]

My favorite potential for renewables:

http://en.wikipedia....r_updraft_tower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GThmu_vD_zM

Interesting concept - one I wasn't familiar with. Thanks for sharing the link.

[Jonger]

We are entering a golden age of carbon extraction. Fracking, Deep sea drilling, etc. Renewables have no chance.

So you say we are entering a golden age of difficult extraction methods and renewables are less attractive? Hmm..

[SVT450R]

My favorite potential for renewables:

http://en.wikipedia....r_updraft_tower

Very cool i also have never seen this thanks for sharing it.

[PhillipS]

We are entering a golden age of carbon extraction. Fracking, Deep sea drilling, etc. Renewables have no chance.

You would be well advised to do some reading about Peak Oil. I think you'll find that far from entering a golden age, we are wringing the planet dry to feed our oil addiction and that an energy crisis will happen in our lifetimes.. Here's a link to a lecture on the topic.

[Jonger]

You would be well advised to do some reading about Peak Oil. I think you'll find that far from entering a golden age, we are wringing the planet dry to feed our oil addiction and that an energy crisis will happen in our lifetimes.. Here's a link to a lecture on the topic.

I just watched 75% of that video. There is an inaccuracy in there!!! I own a seafood company and the part about shrimp and prawn depletion is wrong. Most shrimp and ALL prawns are farm raised and have been for years.

Ok, back to oil.

[nflwxman]

Alek - you raise very good points about renewables - storage and transmission are two hurdles to integrating renewable energy resources into power grids. Progress is being made but we still need technology improvements, particularly in the area of energy storage. Transmission is more a matter of needing additional infrastructure rather than technological breakthroughs.

I'd like to give a bit of background for those who aren't familiar with what happens when you flip a light switch. Electrical power is a commodity just like corn or pork bellies. Like corn and pork bellies there are producers and consumers - but a critical difference for electrical power is that, for the most part, production and consumption have to occur simultaneously. When you flip a switch and increase your demand somewhere a generator has to increase its output to meet that demand. Electrical utilites constantly juggle their generating resources to meet their customers' demands. Fortunately, from the utilities point of view, the electrical loads for a pool of consumers, such as a city, follows predictable daily and seasonal curves so utilities can predict what resources they need to have on-line to meet the demand. And the interconnections between utilities allow those with excess power to sell to those needing additional power.

Renewable energy resources (including solar, wind and tidal) are something of a headache for utilities due to their intermittent nature. If the sun goes behind clouds or the wind stops blowing the output from these resources can go from peak power to nothing in a matter of minutes. But the customer demand doesn't go away so the utility has to keep a matching capacity of 'spinning reserve' available to make up the sudden shortfall. This spinning reserve isn't cheap - it takes money to build, maintain and operate - but it only generates revenue when its power is used by consumers. This is why the General Manager for Austin Energy addressed a smart-grid conference several years ago by saying "It is our dream that every residence and business will have solar panels some day, and it is our nightmare that every residence and business will have solar panels some day." The figure commonly used is that renewable energy resources can only comprise about 20% of a utility's generation portfolio.

Even when renewable energy resources are producing at their peak capacity there remains the issue of mismatch between when the power is being produced and when consumers want to use it. The peak electrical demand is between about 3pm and 6pm daily. Fixed (non-tracking) solar panels produce their max power between about 11am and 2pm, depending on orientation. Not a close match. Wind can be an even worse mismatch.

Large wind turbines have the additional problem of reactive power.needs. Small wind turbines, such as you might install at your home, typically have permanent magnet generators that produce power whenever they are spinning. Large wind turbines are AC generators which require power to energize their coils. One large turbine is not a big deal, but the wind farms being built today have hundreds of turbines and the combined reactive power demands are brief, but enormous. Sometimes more than the local utility can provide.

Energy storage changes the situation dramatically by decoupling power generation from power consumption. If more power is being produced than consumed the surplus is stored until needed. Similarly, if the demand is greater than the available generating capacity then the shortfall is made up from the stored energy. Power can also be stored when generation is cheapest (night) and used when demand is greatest (afternoon) There are a number of energy storage technologies in production and development, including batteries, flywheels, pumped hydro, and compressed air energy storage (CAES). Energy storage capacity for utiltiy scale applications starts at about 1 MWh and goes up to 3 GWh.

Hey All,

Wind Energy Industry insider here. Phillip makes some good points about the intermittency about renewables and how, historically, they have caused some headaches for independent grid operators (or ISOs). However, it is worth mentioning that grid operators have learned quite a bit over the years and have consequently created interesting electron production schedules based on weather forecasts. Basically, a market has formed where many prominent forecasting companies use an ensemble of mesoscale, European, and North American models to predict wind farm and solar production (sometimes up to 3-7 days). These forecasts, which are directly fed to the energy offtaker, act to inform the ISO on how to balance peaking energy sources like natural gas and coal with wind/solar. While this doesn't entirely get rid of the headache of intermittency, it does provide a much better solution than say, 5 years ago. Less electrons are wasted, and therefore, less carbon dioxide and particulates. This has allowed wind energy to reduce it's own carbon footprint significantly.

Yes, cheap energy storage is the "end all be all" of renewables! The technology is slowly gaining steam, and hopefully will become more commercially available in less than a decade. Like any new energy source, modern day wind and solar technologies need refinement. In fact, it took oil over 30 years to become mainstream and commercially profitable (people tend to gloss over that fact). It's worth noting that wind turbines have literally doubled in efficiency in the last decade. For example, a 7 m/s annual wind speed would produce approximately a 20% capacity factor with the GE 70m rotor machine (circa 2001). The new GE 100m rotor machine can run at 40% efficiency with the same wind speed (circa 2010).

If just congress would extend the PTC (production tax credit for renewables). All other energy sources are funded by the government. More oil subsity money poured into the GOM last year than has been handed to wind energy over it's lifetime! It seems strange that renewables aren't given the same shot (or so it seems) when it comes to congressional funding...ahh politics.

[csnavywx]

If we leave the plateau of oil production before this stuff is built and implemented, it has little chance of being completed in time to do precisely jack. Current math via Megaprojects data has this around 2015. Many organizations are warning of this time period as the start of a major energy crisis.

On the bright side, perhaps this will light a fire under our asses to get some real solutions implemented on the local level.

[WxMidwest]

In 2010 there was enough gigawatts produced to power One-Hundred & Sixty Time Traveling Deloreans...

[A-L-E-K]

Well, we could always overload wind/solar to at least generate 100% daylight hour power needs.

unless it's cloudy and/or not windy. The battery/storage issue is important.

[hazwoper]

My favorite potential for renewables:

http://en.wikipedia....r_updraft_tower

I've seen this before. If you think permitting wind and solar farms is difficult, try permitting one of these things in the desert. The footprint is enormous and the habitat taken from T&E species would be quite large. Better hope you can find a place for this not on BLM land, cause if you can't, good luck getting the permits.

[WeatherRusty]

Hey All,

Wind Energy Industry insider here. Phillip makes some good points about the intermittency about renewables and how, historically, they have caused some headaches for independent grid operators (or ISOs). However, it is worth mentioning that grid operators have learned quite a bit over the years and have consequently created interesting electron production schedules based on weather forecasts. Basically, a market has formed where many prominent forecasting companies use an ensemble of mesoscale, European, and North American models to predict wind farm and solar production (sometimes up to 3-7 days). These forecasts, which are directly fed to the energy offtaker, act to inform the ISO on how to balance peaking energy sources like natural gas and coal with wind/solar. While this doesn't entirely get rid of the headache of intermittency, it does provide a much better solution than say, 5 years ago. Less electrons are wasted, and therefore, less carbon dioxide and particulates. This has allowed wind energy to reduce it's own carbon footprint significantly.

Yes, cheap energy storage is the "end all be all" of renewables! The technology is slowly gaining steam, and hopefully will become more commercially available in less than a decade. Like any new energy source, modern day wind and solar technologies need refinement. In fact, it took oil over 30 years to become mainstream and commercially profitable (people tend to gloss over that fact). It's worth noting that wind turbines have literally doubled in efficiency in the last decade. For example, a 7 m/s annual wind speed would produce approximately a 20% capacity factor with the GE 70m rotor machine (circa 2001). The new GE 100m rotor machine can run at 40% efficiency with the same wind speed (circa 2010).

If just congress would extend the PTC (production tax credit for renewables). All other energy sources are funded by the government. More oil subsity money poured into the GOM last year than has been handed to wind energy over it's lifetime! It seems strange that renewables aren't given the same shot (or so it seems) when it comes to congressional funding...ahh politics.

As long as renewables are viewed as a 'liberal' concept tied to other 'liberal' concepts such as 'global warming'/'climate change', there will continue to be little support from one side of the isle.

Given the political reality whereby conservatives won't touch climate change with a ten foot pole regardless of the consequences, the U.S. stands to fall further behind in the global marketplace for renewable development. Slipping away are the days when the U.S. was a world leader in technological development. From the reaches of outer space to electrifying the planet, we seem to have lost our vision.

[nflwxman]

As long as renewables are viewed as a 'liberal' concept tied to other 'liberal' concepts such as 'global warming'/'climate change', there will continue to be little support from one side of the isle.

Given the political reality whereby conservatives won't touch climate change with a ten foot pole regardless of the consequences, the U.S. stands to fall further behind in the global marketplace for renewable development. Slipping away are the days when the U.S. was a world leader in technological development. From the reaches of outer space to electrifying the planet, we seem to have lost our vision.

Tell me about it. Renewables have this kryptonite element to them to some folks. It seems like EVERYBODY knows about the government subsidy program for wind/solar, while noone seems to mention the fact that almost everything is subsidized these days (energy, food, you name it).

I had to explain to a farmer recently (who was very anti-wind) that the corn subsidy program was a much much larger portion of the federal budget than all renewables combined. It's amazing how much his tone changed after I pointed out a real life example of significant subsidy that was pertinent to him.

[donsutherland1]

As long as renewables are viewed as a 'liberal' concept tied to other 'liberal' concepts such as 'global warming'/'climate change', there will continue to be little support from one side of the isle.

Given the political reality whereby conservatives won't touch climate change with a ten foot pole regardless of the consequences, the U.S. stands to fall further behind in the global marketplace for renewable development. Slipping away are the days when the U.S. was a world leader in technological development. From the reaches of outer space to electrifying the planet, we seem to have lost our vision.

Unfortunately, without bold, visionary leadership, there is the risk that the U.S. will become a typical status quo nation that sees its competitive advantages gradually erode on account of a narrowing imagination and risktaking. There is some anecdotal evidence that the U.S. is taking the first steps in that direction (stagnation of educational attainment, retreat from pushing the frontiers in areas ranging from energy to space, the emergence of a loud "counterscience" movement that risks poisoning the nation's capacity for innovation, etc.).

Renewable energy should never be viewed as an element of a political movement or ideological agenda. It should properly be viewed as a geopolitical, economic, and environmental imperative that is in the national interest.

With a highly educated population, enormous pool of capital, and the freedom to pursue scientific and entrepreneurial endeavors, the U.S. has a lot of potential when it comes to renewable energy, among many other fields. Bold leadership can help unlock that potential. Weak leadership will leave a lot of that potential unrealized. The U.S. is still in a position where it has broad latitude of choice. Looming fiscal imbalances, relative decline in educational attainment, lack of focus on investment, bad choices, etc., will pose a threat of limiting the United States' scope for choice in the future. In other words, the U.S. can still choose the more rewarding path. Whether it will remains to be seen. It won't do so if it chooses to be a bystander when it comes to energy innovation.

Meanwhile, the world around the U.S. will continue to evolve. A continuation of the current lack of a sustained and coherent energy strategy by the U.S. will increase the probability that another country or group of countries will eventually develop a qualitative and sustainable advantage in renewable or other forms of clean energy. In doing so, that country or group of countries will be rewarded by the benefits (profits, stable energy source, increase in living standards, etc.) of their foresight, investment, and risktaking, as has been the case whenever critical technologies have advanced to widespread use. Worse, the U.S. will have foregone a share of those benefits strictly on account of the choices it made. There would be no assurance that the U.S. could quickly catch up to overcome its competitive disadvantage in energy.

[hazwoper]

As long as renewables are viewed as a 'liberal' concept tied to other 'liberal' concepts such as 'global warming'/'climate change', there will continue to be little support from one side of the isle.

Given the political reality whereby conservatives won't touch climate change with a ten foot pole regardless of the consequences, the U.S. stands to fall further behind in the global marketplace for renewable development. Slipping away are the days when the U.S. was a world leader in technological development. From the reaches of outer space to electrifying the planet, we seem to have lost our vision.

The sad thing is it was a republican administration that first enacted the PTC (George H. W. Bush), but now they don't want to extend it. Again, all politics, especially in an election year.

[A-L-E-K]

Hey All,

Wind Energy Industry insider here. Phillip makes some good points about the intermittency about renewables and how, historically, they have caused some headaches for independent grid operators (or ISOs). However, it is worth mentioning that grid operators have learned quite a bit over the years and have consequently created interesting electron production schedules based on weather forecasts. Basically, a market has formed where many prominent forecasting companies use an ensemble of mesoscale, European, and North American models to predict wind farm and solar production (sometimes up to 3-7 days). These forecasts, which are directly fed to the energy offtaker, act to inform the ISO on how to balance peaking energy sources like natural gas and coal with wind/solar. While this doesn't entirely get rid of the headache of intermittency, it does provide a much better solution than say, 5 years ago. Less electrons are wasted, and therefore, less carbon dioxide and particulates. This has allowed wind energy to reduce it's own carbon footprint significantly.

Yes, cheap energy storage is the "end all be all" of renewables! The technology is slowly gaining steam, and hopefully will become more commercially available in less than a decade. Like any new energy source, modern day wind and solar technologies need refinement. In fact, it took oil over 30 years to become mainstream and commercially profitable (people tend to gloss over that fact). It's worth noting that wind turbines have literally doubled in efficiency in the last decade. For example, a 7 m/s annual wind speed would produce approximately a 20% capacity factor with the GE 70m rotor machine (circa 2001). The new GE 100m rotor machine can run at 40% efficiency with the same wind speed (circa 2010).

If just congress would extend the PTC (production tax credit for renewables). All other energy sources are funded by the government. More oil subsity money poured into the GOM last year than has been handed to wind energy over it's lifetime! It seems strange that renewables aren't given the same shot (or so it seems) when it comes to congressional funding...ahh politics.

bump, great post

[SVT450R]

Here in NJ PSE&G the electric company is putting up utility pole attached solar panels when completed it will produce 40MW state wide. Was wondering if this is only being done around my state or if anyone has seen it implemented in there town or state also.